Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[ProudMuslim]

Stupid argument. I'm a minor invisible target in a world of larger visible targets. If I was going around the country giving public criticisms of Islam I'm sure a few death threats would materialize from Muslim trash.

It's telling how little concern you showed to those under threat and those harmed by members of your religion.

If i was a Black running in a KKK stronghold i would probably by killed and buried by White Trash.

If i was running criticising Christianity in a Bible Belt i would probably by beaten to death by Christian trash.

Your argument can be applied to any region, religion and race. Your sick fixation with Islam is the one that need to be cured cause what you are wishing for (elimination of Islam and Muslims) won't just happen so it is better to realize the only option you've got is to coexist and accept that Islam will never vanish.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Theo Van Gogh was murdered for criticizing Islam. We are not speaking about merely standing up for one's beliefs. We are talking about murder and oppression.

How many innocent Muslims citizens were murdered by American trash after 9/11 in US only? You even included innocent Sikh assuming they were Muslims.

I will buy the truth. Stop twisting the truth.

The neo-Nazi truth maybe.

Theo van Gogh was not trying to take anyone's property and I don't find his murder funny. Do you?

He was a despicable person but he should not have been killed. What about the innocent Muslims or Sikhs that were murdered for merely being Muslims or in the Sikh case resembled Muslims, was that funny or perhaps justified?

The Koran is not the only book of Islam and you know it.

WOW, keep talking. And just when i thought your posts couldnt get any crazier i am proven wrong So in your exotic lala land, how many holy books do Muslims have? Just make sure you are not confusing us with your forefathers religion.

 

[ProudMuslim]

...when you hear Muslims say that Islam is the "one true religion", that simple statement is nothing more than propaganda.

It is a statement of confidence.

Religion of peace is false one too. In Muhammad lifetime alone, he raided, attack cities and tribes, sold women and children into slavery, if he hadn't ordered them butchered. And the Islamic empire that came about after his death, is both a religion and an empire is built on wars, conquests and taking over lands that don't belong to them. Subjugating and annexing another kingdom into the empire is not that of peace.

..... according to some Western tales.

 

[Fatihah]

Ding dong,there is more if you wish:
Islam entered Africa shortly after its inception in the seventh century AD. After the death of Muhammad, the rasul, or "messenger," and prophet of Islam, in 632, the first caliph ("deputy of the prophet") of Islam, Abu Bakr, ambitiously undertook a series of military conquests to spread the new faith across the world. Although he died two years later, his nephew, Umar, continued the ambitious program. In 636, the Muslims occupied Jerusalem, Damascus, and Antioch; in 651, they had conquered all of Persia. But they also moved west into Africa, for Arabic culture saw itself as continuous not only with Middle Eastern culture, but with northern African culture as well. In 646, the Muslims conquered Egypt and quickly spread across northern Africa. From northern Africa, they invaded Spain in 711. Look at the dates: Islam is founded in 610 when Muhammed has the first of his revelations in the caves above the city of Qumran. In 711, one hundred years later, the Muslims conquered the Middle East, Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, northern Africa, and had just entered Europe. The initial spread of Islam is the single most dramatic cultural change in the history of the world, and it loomed large in the subsequent history of African civilizations.

Response: Nothing to which I can disagree with. However, no war was started by Abu Bakr and the muslims during this conquest. It is the job of every muslim to preach the word of islam but in those times, any religion or way of life that differed from the way the king or ruler of a particular people lived was not accepted which would cause wars between the ruler and the opposing group who does not wish to follow them. So when islam was presented to the non-muslims, many would embrace it while others would fight the muslims. So in an effort to defend themselves, yes the muslims went to war and yes the religion of islam was vastly spread this is not due to force or compulsion but the simple fact that once you lose a war, naturally you lose your right to be ruler of the land. So now that the muslims are in control, it makes the religion of islam much more accessible to non-muslims and because of this, the non-muslims realized the religion of truth and ran towards islam willing to embrace it.

 

[Fatihah]

look i'm not saying they are wrong, but people do change them after a while bit by bit so that it goes un-noticed, but it eventually surfaces, it shows.

OK lets look at this Bukhari Hadith:
Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

This is obviously about a Jew who became a Muslim and the reverted back to Judaism and was killed for doing so,and a statement by Mu'adh that "This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice."
these are the key points,so what has been changed? if anything has been changed,who changed it and why,certaily not a non Muslim.
I think that the sahih Hadiths give us an insight into the religion of Islam 1400 years ago and unfortunately some (not all) Muslims have applied these punishments today and i can see why there are countries such as Saudi,Iran,Syria etc because it's all there in the Hadiths.

Response: People tend to focus so much on the fact that a person is killed for apostasy in the hadiths but never seem to keen in on the other elements in the hadith.

This man was a muslim then suddenly became a jew. Why does the man become a jew? He does not say. Let's also keep in mind that no one can know who's a muslim and who's a jew unless they publically confess it. So this man must have publically denounced the religion of islam and became a jew. Now here's my question, if you know that death is a punishment for apostasy, why on earth does a man publically proclaim he is an apostate? This shows that the man was either going to wage war on islam or had a serious death wish.

Also notice how comfortable one of the muslims were with the man in the hadith. In another narration when the two muslims learned that he was an apostate, the man began to run for his life. Why? He could have simply said that he wasn't an apostate or simply asked for peace but he did neither. Therefore, this man clearly had an agenda to harm the muslims.

You see it was a strategedy for non-muslims to say that they are muslims then when the muslim have their backs turned, they attack. Again, notice how comfortable the other muslim was around him. He would have been easy prey.

 

[Gharib]

Response: People tend to focus so much on the fact that a person is killed for apostasy in the hadiths but never seem to keen in on the other elements in the hadith.

This man was a muslim then suddenly became a jew. Why does the man become a jew? He does not say. Let's also keep in mind that no one can know who's a muslim and who's a jew unless they publically confess it. So this man must have publically denounced the religion of islam and became a jew. Now here's my question, if you know that death is a punishment for apostasy, why on earth does a man publically proclaim he is an apostate? This shows that the man was either going to wage war on islam or had a serious death wish.

Also notice how comfortable one of the muslims were with the man in the hadith. In another narration when the two muslims learned that he was an apostate, the man began to run for his life. Why? He could have simply said that he wasn't an apostate or simply asked for peace but he did neither. Therefore, this man clearly had an agenda to harm the muslims.

You see it was a strategedy for non-muslims to say that they are muslims then when the muslim have their backs turned, they attack. Again, notice how comfortable the other muslim was around him. He would have been easy prey.

i thought you posted that for me, :slap:. good thing i don't have to answer it, cos i don't have an answer.

 

[ProudMuslim]

I speak of Muslims today of a specific time, and I get derailed with the argument that there's no "true"Islamic country today.

And if you were interested as you pretend in knowing why, you can simply ask questions and you will find out why most Muslims these days don't believe there is any current state that practice true Islam.

So when I direct my question or the debate in another direction, either during Muhammad's time or that of the empires after his death, I am not told by you that I shouldn't go in that direction too.

What do you want?

We want you to know that the version of the stories you choose to believe are simply not held true in our version. We are not defending the crimes mentioned in the stories presented in your version, we simply are saying this is not the case.

So I can't talk about the propaganda that Muslims used?

Sure you can. No one is immune from using propoganda.

I can't talk about Muhammad. I can't talk about the empires of Islam. And it seemed that I can't address any question that deal with Islam and Muslims.

You can, but by the same token expect Muslims refuting your arguments and presenting different version of the truth. Pure and simple.

If you want us to nod and accept most of the accusations presented here then i am afraid to tell you this will never happen. It wont matter how much you (Not you personally) will repeat an accusation, it will never be a truth to us simply because our Holy Book does not endorse it.

 

[England my lionheart]

So this is a propoganda but danish cartoons were "freedom of expression"? Just wondering.

Belive it or not i have'nt seen the Cartoons but there is a lot of anti Islam stuff comming from that part of the world.

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote Fatihah: islam was vastly spread this is not due to force or compulsion but the simple fact that once you lose a war, naturally you lose your right to be ruler of the land.

Just as an aside i wonder if the Palestinians would accept that.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: People tend to focus so much on the fact that a person is killed for apostasy in the hadiths but never seem to keen in on the other elements in the hadith.

This man was a muslim then suddenly became a jew. Why does the man become a jew? He does not say. Let's also keep in mind that no one can know who's a muslim and who's a jew unless they publically confess it. So this man must have publically denounced the religion of islam and became a jew. Now here's my question, if you know that death is a punishment for apostasy, why on earth does a man publically proclaim he is an apostate? This shows that the man was either going to wage war on islam or had a serious death wish.

First,he was a Jew who converted to Islam and then back to Judaism,well i see your argument but that could be said of any Apostate or even any adulterer,each knows the penalty for these Sharia crimes.This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.

Also notice how comfortable one of the muslims were with the man in the hadith. In another narration when the two muslims learned that he was an apostate, the man began to run for his life. Why? He could have simply said that he wasn't an apostate or simply asked for peace but he did neither. Therefore, this man clearly had an agenda to harm the muslims.

Well if he did then show me.

You see it was a strategedy for non-muslims to say that they are muslims then when the muslim have their backs turned, they attack. Again, notice how comfortable the other muslim was around him. He would have been easy prey.

I'm afraid you seem to be looking for alibi's when there are'nt any.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Belive it or not i have'nt seen the Cartoons but there is a lot of anti Islam stuff comming from that part of the world.

Which part of the world?

 

[ProudMuslim]

Quote Fatihah: islam was vastly spread this is not due to force or compulsion but the simple fact that once you lose a war, naturally you lose your right to be ruler of the land.

Just as an aside i wonder if the Palestinians would accept that.

It is not about accepting, it is about a reality whether one accepts it or not. That's why i find it silly when some Arabs refuse to call that land 'Israel' but 'Palestine'. Well if it is 'Palestine', who are the Palestinians fighting with and for what cause?

 

[Fatihah]

Where's YOUR proof?

Response: Of what?

Quote: Alla Prima
Direct me to the post(s) where concern was expressed by you.

Response: You can start from my first to now. All of them are illustrations of how islam is a religion of peace.

 

[Fatihah]

I agree. There is misinformation and misunderstanding. People are too willing to just believe the worst of a group of people they don't understand. I have seen this with regards to different groups of people. I think the best way to confront such misinformation is to patiently and peacefully establish the truth.

Response: Exactly. I as a muslim will disagree with certain claims of christianity. But that's it. It's a disagreement. There is no defamation and slander on the part of any muslim organization that I know of in which they try to stress that the teachings of christianity is violence. They may be hated. Yes. There may be muslims who love to point out that there have been evil christians. But no one says its principle teaching is to be violent. Yes all religious groups have their black sheep, islam included, but there is an exception when it comes to islam. People are going beyond stating that the religion has evil members and want us to believe that terrorism and violence is actually a principle teaching. That's the difference between islam and all other religions. This has always made me wonder why islam is the only exception but I wonder no more. I know propaganda when I see it and hopefully we all will see the truth of the matter.

 

[England my lionheart]

Which part of the world?

Scandinavia

 

[England my lionheart]

It is not about accepting, it is about a reality whether one accepts it or not. That's why i find it silly when some Arabs refuse to call that land 'Israel' but 'Palestine'. Well if it is 'Palestine', who are the Palestinians fighting with and for what cause?

Good point

 

[ProudMuslim]

Scaninavia

Really? I am told that Scandinavian countries (except Denmark even before the cartoons) are the most tolerant countries.

 

[Fatihah]

I can follow this. I have not tested the proof. I probably should. But answer me this. If the Qur'an is true, what does that mean exactly? And how do we know it can not be changed or diminished?

Response: If the qur'an is true, then the facts inside are true. And in the qur'an we are told that Allah will guard the qur'an. (Ch.15:9) Therefore there is a promise from Allah himself that he will guard the qur'an and in ch.4:82 we are told that the qur'an is free from any discrepancy.

But the real question is "How do we know all of this is true?" Well the answer to that is ch.2:23 of the qur'an where humankind is challenged to produce a chapter like the qur'an. The whole purpose is to find out whether in fact the qur'an is man/woman made. If there is someone who can produce a chapter like the qur'an than the claim that the qur'an is from Allah goes out the window. But when he or she fails miserably in their attempts, then one must ask themself, "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me?" And the only logical answer is because Muhammad had the help of a Supreme being who's name is Allah. If there is someone who disagrees, the 1400+ year challenge still stands. Produce a chapter like it.

 

[Fatihah]

Quote Fatihah: islam was vastly spread this is not due to force or compulsion but the simple fact that once you lose a war, naturally you lose your right to be ruler of the land.

Just as an aside i wonder if the Palestinians would accept that.

Response: I believe they would. What they don't like is when the UN decided to get together and give the Jews a piece of land that was originally tooken from them by European forces.

 

[Fatihah]

I'm afraid you seem to be looking for alibi's when there are'nt any.

Response: How so?