Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[Fatihah]

and heres the proof from the quran that supports your statement;

When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe" but when they are alone with their evil ones they say: "We are really with you we; (were) only jesting. 2:14

Response: True indeed.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: A whole lot of statements. Where's the proof?

Ding dong,there is more if you wish:
Islam entered Africa shortly after its inception in the seventh century AD. After the death of Muhammad, the rasul, or "messenger," and prophet of Islam, in 632, the first caliph ("deputy of the prophet") of Islam, Abu Bakr, ambitiously undertook a series of military conquests to spread the new faith across the world. Although he died two years later, his nephew, Umar, continued the ambitious program. In 636, the Muslims occupied Jerusalem, Damascus, and Antioch; in 651, they had conquered all of Persia. But they also moved west into Africa, for Arabic culture saw itself as continuous not only with Middle Eastern culture, but with northern African culture as well. In 646, the Muslims conquered Egypt and quickly spread across northern Africa. From northern Africa, they invaded Spain in 711. Look at the dates: Islam is founded in 610 when Muhammed has the first of his revelations in the caves above the city of Qumran. In 711, one hundred years later, the Muslims conquered the Middle East, Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, northern Africa, and had just entered Europe. The initial spread of Islam is the single most dramatic cultural change in the history of the world, and it loomed large in the subsequent history of African civilizations.

 

[England my lionheart]

The death of Theo van Gogh will never be boring Muslim. If it is boring to you perhaps you have little in common with the human family.

Theo is but one of many who were murdered or threatened with harm for criticizing Islam. Some are still living such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ali Sina and Brigitte Gabrial. People are being murdered for criticizing Islam and Muslims do nothing to stop it. In fact most Muslims lend tacit support of it by remaining silent. Why? Because the teaching of Islam support it. The very nature of Islam is oppression.

Kareem Soliman is in prison in Egypt in what is supposedly a secular country for criticising Islam:

 

[England my lionheart]

look i'm not saying they are wrong, but people do change them after a while bit by bit so that it goes un-noticed, but it eventually surfaces, it shows.

OK lets look at this Bukhari Hadith:
Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

This is obviously about a Jew who became a Muslim and the reverted back to Judaism and was killed for doing so,and a statement by Mu'adh that "This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice."
these are the key points,so what has been changed? if anything has been changed,who changed it and why,certaily not a non Muslim.
I think that the sahih Hadiths give us an insight into the religion of Islam 1400 years ago and unfortunately some (not all) Muslims have applied these punishments today and i can see why there are countries such as Saudi,Iran,Syria etc because it's all there in the Hadiths.

 

[Alla Prima]

Kareem Soliman is in prison in Egypt in what is supposedly a secular country for criticising Islam:

Thank you, I didn't know about this.

An Egyptian court has sentenced a blogger to four years' prison for insulting Islam and the president.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6385849.stm

Islam is nothing if not anti-freedom. I fail to see why we have allowed this Islamic ideology into our western liberal societies. It is a cancer which will only gradually erode our hard won treasure.

 

[Rakhel]

yet Jews don't say "That's not true Judaism" Because we know that what one Jew does affects the entire Jewish nation. Why do you think the members of the Neturi Karta were excommunicated? And Spinoza? It had nothing to do with their views about Israel it was because they told the wrold that they represented Judaism. This put other Jews lives in danger. So we distanced ourselves from them. Informed the world that we do not think this way.
I know that Iran is worried that Israel will attack them and said it will attack before Israel gets the chance. Israel is worried that Iran will attack them and has said it will do the same. Both sides are spinning propaganda. So now what? What is true Islam? Is it any different from true Judaism? Is there such a thing?
We have both suffered from the spins of propaganda. From each other and from Christians. The only way I can see anyone getting past it is to not make excuses about what true religion is. Accept what our religion says about us and our prophets and get past it. We can both be a religion of peace we just have to stop defending what those do in the name of our religions.

 

[Rin]

Response: That's the whole point. If the teachings of islam says to revere Jesus and Moses while the christians and jews defame the character of Muhammad, how on earth can the jews and christians blame Muhammad for not being peaceful when they're the ones who are defaming him, despite the fact that he has never done so to their prophets?

As for the Baha'I teachings and prophets, islam does not accept it. But that's it. You don't see any muslim missionaries here trying to defame the character of their prophets. That's the difference.

I do feel that there doesn't seem to be any end to evangelism other than discord but if you think that Islam doesn't sow its own share, you are kidding yourself.

It's very important to point out wrongs but not when it is at the cost of recognizing our own weaknesses.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

So it is okay for Muslims to attack infidels because they have weapons, but it's not okay for infidels to do the same but in reverse?

And are you saying that only Muslims have the rights to carry weapons and defend themselves? So infidels can't carry weapons and defend themselves?

You know what, eselam?

You sound like a typical gun-tottering American.

It is the sort of propaganda that Americans loved to use.

Ouch. I felt that.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: A whole lot of statements. Where's the proof?

Where's YOUR proof?

Originally Posted by Fatihah
Response: I show the same concern, if not more, than the concern you show. So the "telling" of my concern is no different from yours.

Direct me to the post(s) where concern was expressed by you.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Response: Indeed one can see the obvious propaganda against islam. You don't have to be a muslim to see this as you are evidence of that. As a jew, I'm sure you are aware of the affects and many forms of propaganda as the jews have been victims of such cruelty for so long.

I don't think that it's a case of muslims not wanting to do something but rather the propaganda has become so extreme and so effective that one does not know where and how to begin fighting off such propaganda.

I agree. There is misinformation and misunderstanding. People are too willing to just believe the worst of a group of people they don't understand. I have seen this with regards to different groups of people. I think the best way to confront such misinformation is to patiently and peacefully establish the truth.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Response: Let's say that I present to you a basketball and say that the ball can not bounce. You see the basketball and say that it can bounce. So I begin to provide evidence from historians and scholars to prove my stance and likewise you do the same.

So what is the end result? Naturally I will say that your facts are wrong and you can easily say the same to me. So how do we resolve this? Well, what better way to know if the basketball will bounce than to bounce it yourself?!! What better logic of
proof can be better than that?!!

In other words, test the logic. And this simple concept of testing logic is mentioned in the qur'an. In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".

Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted. That established, we turn to ch.24:55 which says "Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will, surely, make them Successors in the earth, as He made successors (of) those who were before them; and that He will, surely, establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them..." And in ch.17:81 we read "And proclaim 'Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Verily, falsehood is bound to vanish".

So the qur'an establishes the fact that the false religions will fail in comparison to the truth. So the fact that the collection of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim is established as authentic by the muslim world over other hadiths and biographies shows that these other collections are indeed false.

I can follow this. I have not tested the proof. I probably should. But answer me this. If the Qur'an is true, what does that mean exactly? And how do we know it can not be changed or diminished?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

The death of Theo van Gogh will never be boring Muslim. If it is boring to you perhaps you have little in common with the human family.

Theo is but one of many who were murdered or threatened with harm for criticizing Islam. Some are still living such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ali Sina and Brigitte Gabrial. People are being murdered for criticizing Islam and Muslims do nothing to stop it. In fact most Muslims lend tacit support of it by remaining silent. Why? Because the teaching of Islam support it. The very nature of Islam is oppression.

I would argue that this is due to a misunderstanding of Islam. After all, there was a time when people (lots of them) were killed for criticizing the accepted Christian teachings in Europe. Does that mean Christianity is a religion of oppression? I don't think so. Same with Islam in my opinion.

 

[Gharib]

Kareem Soliman is in prison in Egypt in what is supposedly a secular country for criticising Islam:

wasn't he soposed to have been killed for apostacy, you guys say that muhammed (saws) killed apostates but this guy is still alive (i don't know what the quran says about apostates, so i can't say anything), so here is actual proof that this man didn't get killed.

 

[Gharib]

What do you want from me, eselam?

i haven't asked anything from you, have i?

I speak of Muslims today of a specific time, and I get derailed with the argument that there's no "true"Islamic country today.

Originally Posted by gnostic
Religion of peace is false one too. In Muhammad lifetime alone, he raided, attack cities and tribes, sold women and children into slavery, if he hadn't ordered them butchered. And the Islamic empire that came about after his death, is both a religion and an empire is built on wars, conquests and taking over lands that don't belong to them. Subjugating and annexing another kingdom into the empire is not that of peace.

i think you forgot your own statement. that was very quick.

So when I direct my question or the debate in another direction, either during Muhammad's time or that of the empires after his death, I am not told by you that I shouldn't go in that direction too.

well thats because you guys have nothing to debate about if i said stop arguing about those points, you are free to express your views. so i just go along.

What do you want?

nothing, i though we were debating, not fulfilling each others wishes.

So I can't talk about the propaganda that Muslims used?

now thats a good question. what if a talked about the propaganda used against islam. and you can try to defend the people that did so. would this be ok.

I can't talk about Muhammad. I can't talk about the empires of Islam. And it seemed that I can't address any question that deal with Islam and Muslims.

i thought this thread was about those particular points. i haven't denied you from speaking about us, but why always talk about the events that happened 1400 years ago. even if i defend them everyone will say, the information is biased, and yet all these "wonderfull" news about Muhammed (saws) have made it this far. has anyone travelled back to the past, please tell me how it happened.

Then what's the point of Fatihah of bringing up the issue when one such as you won't debate. If there is only side, then this forum in the debate section wouldn't be called debate forum.

ok if my post is giving you a message "you are not allowed to speak about muslims" just ignore that, thats not what i'm saying.

If you don't want to debate, then it is up to you. You are free to answer or not

yes you are right, it is either that or that.

 

[Gharib]

So it is okay for Muslims to attack infidels because they have weapons, but it's not okay for infidels to do the same but in reverse?

o i didn't know that when you and i go to war, we will cary dipies with us. we will be carrying weapons, where have i said that muslims should not be killed if they have a weapon. have i said that?

And are you saying that only Muslims have the rights to carry weapons and defend themselves? So infidels can't carry weapons and defend themselves?

gnostic, i think you are starting to forget things very soon, i hope you are not a golfish , three seconds of memorie isn't good enough around here.
this is what i said;
"we are told to kill the infidels who have weapons and have come to take our homes" if you come to visit my country why should i kill you, that would be dumb, and i'd go to hell for it, killing you or anyone else isn't worth going to hell.

You know what, eselam?

You sound like a typical gun-tottering American.

aren't americans, christian, jewish, hindus, seiks, duddhists, etc. i gues we have something in common then, all religions like to kill.

It is the sort of propaganda that Americans loved to use.

so then we are clear that, all religions are the same. the other religions are no different from islam, even atheism is no different.

 

[Gharib]

Saudi Arabia

what about it?

 

[Gharib]

The death of Theo van Gogh will never be boring Muslim. If it is boring to you perhaps you have little in common with the human family.

is there a message in this statement or a point, i seriously don't get it.

Theo is but one of many who were murdered or threatened with harm for criticizing Islam. Some are still living such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ali Sina and Brigitte Gabrial. People are being murdered for criticizing Islam and Muslims do nothing to stop it. In fact most Muslims lend tacit support of it by remaining silent. Why? Because the teaching of Islam support it. The very nature of Islam is oppression.

ok lets do some talking;
lets just say that he desserved to be killed (i don't know what happened) so we agree to that ok, because he spoke bad about islam.

so lets go to another example now shall we;
many muslims were killed by the pagan arabs of Muhammeds (saws) time, only for expressing their belief in public, they never critisized the other religions, they just stuck to theirs and they got killed for it.

now camparing the 2 examples, i'd say that what Van gough got was because he desserved it, why speak bad about the beliefs of others.
and what the muslims got was not what they desserved, they were only expressing their belief, they didn't try to discriminate any other religions, so why did they get killed for nothing.

now thats propaganda. and what about the times when the meccans tried to assasinate Muhammed (saws), he never did anything wrong appart from calling people to islam. isn't that propaganda against islam. but that doesn't count, does it. the muslims desserve to be killed for nothing, and have their freedom taken away, but when we return the favour to those who disscriminate our religion, then we should let them, thats what peacefull people do, don't they.

this is propaganda. ok

 

[England my lionheart]

This is propaganda:
How can Israel be considered democratic when Arabs do not have the vote?
Israel is Occupying Palestinian Land.
Zionism is Racist
Jerusalem is an Arab City

This is propaganda used by Hamas (this is for example only) and like most propaganda either false or blown out of proportion.

In this next piece of propaganda we see the Nazis hate of Jews:
Here they are putting the blame for WW2 on the Jews.

Now the reason i have posted these examples is because some posters seem not to be able to distinguish propaganda from an actual event like an 8 year old girl forced into Marriage to a 47 year old Man,now while i will agree that this could be used as propaganda it isn't neccessary because the subject matter is so terrible and what people consider propaganda are actual events.

 

[ProudMuslim]

This is propaganda:
How can Israel be considered democratic when Arabs do not have the vote?
Israel is Occupying Palestinian Land.
Zionism is Racist
Jerusalem is an Arab City

This is propaganda used by Hamas (this is for example only) and like most propaganda either false or blown out of proportion.

In this next piece of propaganda we see the Nazis hate of Jews:
Here they are putting the blame for WW2 on the Jews.

Now the reason i have posted these examples is because some posters seem not to be able to distinguish propaganda from an actual event like an 8 year old girl forced into Marriage to a 47 year old Man,now while i will agree that this could be used as propaganda it isn't neccessary because the subject matter is so terrible and what people consider propaganda are actual events.

So this is a propoganda but danish cartoons were "freedom of expression"? Just wondering.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Cop out.
All you have to do is say that that is not what the Koran says.

Then prove us wrong and post a verse from the Qur'an that support your claim. Qur'an is available online, so it is a very easy and fair request.

Or you can run around with the "You are not Muslim, so you cannot be right because I am a Muslim and I disagree" banner.

When a non-Muslim insist on a certain "teaching" that does not pertain to Islam, i think it is the most polite reply. Believe me it can get worse with the likes of Alla Prima.