Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[kai]

Maybe Proud Muslim or Fatihah could clear all this up with one question.

Now in Iraq there seems to be a spate of murders concerning gay men, OK OK you are going to say "its nothing to do with Islam" fine! i accept that answer, ------But the question is why do Muslims believe it is, what is it in the quran ,sunnah that leads Muslims to believe its OK to kill Homosexuals.


BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Fears over Iraq gay killing spate

Of course there are no Homosexuals in Iran.but when there was, same question what made them think it was OK to kill them?

In Iran: Homosexuals Put to Death, But Transsexuals are Okay



Saudi Arabia

Is this a coincidence that cultural or tribal influences into Islam are making people beleive its ok to kill homosexuals?

UNHCR | Refworld | Saudi Arabia: Treatment of homosexuals by authorities and by society in general; recourse available to those who have been targeted because of their sexual orientation (2004 - 2007)



Homosexuality and Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[YmirGF]

Qur'an, Pickthall, Sura 4[/b]]
56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

The punishment is not sadistic at all. A person who refuses to give respect to the one who gave them life deserves whatever punishment their creator gives them.

Thank you, Fatihah, that explains quite a lot actually. Out of curiosity would you describe yourself as a "moderate" Muslim or and a fundamentalist?

The fact that you couldn't come up with a logical rebuttle is evidence enough that the argument was reasonable.

If you say so. What I was trying to get at is that your argument, as given, was patently absurd as there is absolutely no similarity between packets of meat and religion. To address an absurdity is to further the absurdity by giving it credence that it does not deserve. For example, you simply cannot prove to an unbeliever that one religion is superior to another without getting into all kinds of logical fallacies. Somehow I doubt you will agree.

By this logic then one can surmise that it is perfectly ok to disrespect anyone who has fought against Islam.

Point being?

It shows that you are not interested in peaceful co-existence.

So, in effect, you cannot even be friends with non-Muslims, which puts you in a perpetual adversarial role. Are you not uncomfortable with bigotry being enshrined in your religion?

Not at all

So you are good with bigotry being a part of Islamic dogma or no?

This self-defence argument does not wash because Islam represents a clear and present danger to Pagans, Christians and Jews. Did they not have a right to defend themselves against your founder's thinking?

I'm reading statements. Where's the proof?

I'm going to use a standard Muslim debate tactic here and suggest you prove me wrong. To be fair, you could NOT use Islamic sources as they can hardly be relied upon to give the true views of the affected Pagans, Christian's and Jews of the time.

What does that have to do with the verse allegedly being anti-jewish?

Perhaps we need the opinion of a Jew here. I cannot imagine that they would find it particularly flattering. It does rather give the impression that Jews and idoltors are the scum of the earth.

Again, more distortion. Neither of the verses you've quoted say that Allah is deceiving anyone. It is the hypocrites and disbelievers trying to deceive. Why try to distort the verse?

Say what?
The verses specifically state:
1. Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive God, but He deceives them; (In this context the verse appears to be talking specifically about Allah.)
2. Thus Allah deceiveth him who is a prodigal, a doubter. (Again, the quote does seem to indicate that Allah is deceiving the prodigal doubter here.)

Where exactly, is the distortion?

How so?

Your response to my point speaks volumes, Fatihah. Good work.

More statements. Where's the proof?

Prove that it is untrue. Remember, you have to look at it from the Jews and Christian's viewpoint, NOT the Muslims. Good luck.

No where in the verse does it say to do good for a reward so your point is rather pointless.

Oh good grief. Perhaps you could share with our home audience the Islamic notion of spiritual rewards then and why you receive them.

Distorting verses won't help the situation either.

I agree wholeheartedly, Fatihah. There is no need to distort anything.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Noe you sound like Bahai, I thought it was the same message "Islam" but was corrupted ?

No, not at all. Like i have said we believe all previous Prophets and Messengers of God delivered the same message which is there is only one God and that we must submit our will to Him. However, we do believe our religious Laws (Halakah to Jews, Sharia to Muslims) were not the same. For example, we do believe that Sabbath was a holy day, we do believe that the direction to prayer was Jerusalem not Mecca, we do believe that Kosher food which is a bit different than Halal food was the way during Moses times.

Does this make sense? I'm not sure if i clarified it enough.

 

[Fatihah]

You're dodging. Address the verse.

Response: The verse was addressed. If you're looking for a specific answer, then ask a more specific question.

 

[Fatihah]

Any religion or ideology that advocates murdering it's members who freely choose to leave it is evil. That you see nothing wrong with what these verses are saying tells me that you support evil and probably are in fact an evil person.

Response: You see, the problem is that you have never studied the entire collection of hadiths but instead you google or use other search engines to find specific hadiths to try to prove a point. Had you ever studied the hadiths together along with the qur'an, you would have learned that the individuals who are mentioned leaving islam were never muslims to begin with. They were just calling themselves muslims in order to cause mischief in the land and learn more about them so that they could bring information back to their people so that when it was time to strike the muslims, they would be better prepared. So naturally they were killed before they could kill any of the muslims.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: You see, the problem is that you have never studied the entire collection of hadiths but instead you google or use other search engines to find specific hadiths to try to prove a point. Had you ever studied the hadiths together along with the qur'an, you would have learned that the individuals who are mentioned leaving islam were never muslims to begin with. They were just calling themselves muslims in order to cause mischief in the land and learn more about them so that they could bring information back to their people so that when it was time to strike the muslims, they would be better prepared. So naturally they were killed before they could kill any of the muslims.

All I see here are words. Your proof? Do you have an unbiased non-Muslim sources for this?

 

[Fatihah]

Thank you, Fatihah, that explains quite a lot actually. Out of curiosity would you describe yourself as a "moderate" Muslim or and a fundamentalist?

Response: I am the same as the prophet Muhammad, a muslim.

Quote: YmirGF
If you say so. What I was trying to get at is that your argument, as given, was patently absurd as there is absolutely no similarity between packets of meat and religion. To address an absurdity is to further the absurdity by giving it credence that it does not deserve. For example, you simply cannot prove to an unbeliever that one religion is superior to another without getting into all kinds of logical fallacies. Somehow I doubt you will agree.

Response: On the contrary, to persistantly call something absurd without any logic as to how or why it is is evidence that the reasoning is in fact logical. Otherwise you would be able to come up with a better explaination which you've consistantly failed to do so.

Quote: YmirGF

It shows that you are not interested in peaceful co-existence.

Response: Exactly how does not allowing someone to harm me an example of me not being interested in a peaceful co-existance?

Quote: YmirGF

So you are good with bigotry being a part of Islamic dogma or no?

Response: Not at all

Quote: YmirGF

I'm going to use a standard Muslim debate tactic here and suggest you prove me wrong. To be fair, you could NOT use Islamic sources as they can hardly be relied upon to give the true views of the affected Pagans, Christian's and Jews of the time.
Perhaps we need the opinion of a Jew here. I cannot imagine that they would find it particularly flattering. It does rather give the impression that Jews and idoltors are the scum of the earth.

Response: So you've made a claim and instead of providing proof that it is correct you want me to prove that it's incorrect? How unfortunate that you've just had to reduce your argument to such a level.

Quote: YmirGF
Say what?
The verses specifically state:
1. Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive God, but He deceives them; (In this context the verse appears to be talking specifically about Allah.)
2. Thus Allah deceiveth him who is a prodigal, a doubter. (Again, the quote does seem to indicate that Allah is deceiving the prodigal doubter here.)

Where exactly, is the distortion?

Response: Just because you highlight the words does not mean that they are true. Those highlighted words are not apart of the text. Period. The simple fact that you insist on saying it is is makes your intentions even more clearer.

Quote: YmirGF
Your response to my point speaks volumes, Fatihah. Good work.
Prove that it is untrue. Remember, you have to look at it from the Jews and Christian's viewpoint, NOT the Muslims. Good luck.
Oh good grief. Perhaps you could share with our home audience the Islamic notion of spiritual rewards then and why you receive them.

I agree wholeheartedly, Fatihah. There is no need to distort anything.

Response: Again you want me to prove something untrue instead of you providing proof of your own claims that it is true. Please my friend, have enough humility to simply say that you don't have the answer. Don't reduce your argument to this.

 

[YmirGF]

Again you want me to prove something untrue instead of you providing proof of your own claims that it is true. Please my friend, have enough humility to simply say that you don't have the answer. Don't reduce your argument to this.

You might want to follow your own advice, as that is specifically why I worded it exactly that way. What you say is correct, in this context, and that doubles my point right back on to you. Provide proof for YOUR statements.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: You see, the problem is that you have never studied the entire collection of hadiths but instead you google or use other search engines to find specific hadiths to try to prove a point. Had you ever studied the hadiths together along with the qur'an, you would have learned that the individuals who are mentioned leaving islam were never muslims to begin with. They were just calling themselves muslims in order to cause mischief in the land and learn more about them so that they could bring information back to their people so that when it was time to strike the muslims, they would be better prepared. So naturally they were killed before they could kill any of the muslims.

Do you take me for a fool? I got a bridge in New York city I'll sell to you for 600 bucks. You know the one - the Brooklyn Bridge. I got it on sale this week.

I never heard such paranoid nonsense in all my life. You Muslims love to pull the wool over people's eyes don't you. Did someone do this to you? Are these the lies they told you? I suggest you'll have better luck shilling this crap to stupid people.

And btw - all people (according to Islam) are born Islam/Muslim.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: The verse was addressed. If you're looking for a specific answer, then ask a more specific question.

You said:

"you nor anyone else can quote anything from the qur'an or sunnah to show that islam isn't a religion of peace."

I provided proof - you ran from it. Ball's still in your court Muslim.

 

[Gharib]

To say that Jesus was a Muslim is absurd and purely untrue. One can make any claim to support his argument, but if it is a lie, it discredits the one making the case.

yeah i agree, the same can be said for people who say he is the son of god, and have no proof.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: And with every human rights issue you post in connection with islam that islam doesn't condone, I will provide facts that show that it's propaganda and the roots of your facts in my rebuttle. You may proceed.

So any case that comes to light of the plight of victims of Sharia law ie beheading,stoning,mutilation,lashing etc is merely Propaganda,i wonder if the people who suffer these punishments would agree,well actually you could only ask the ones who are still breathing.

OK lets examine this from Amnesty International:
Amnesty International has launched an urgent appeal for a university professor in Saudi Arabia who has been sentenced to 150 lashes and eight months' imprisonment for meeting a woman in a coffee shop.
Dr Muhammad 'Ali Abu Raziza, a psychology professor at the University of Um al-Qura in Mecca, is facing the punishment after being found guilty of the Shari'a law offence of 'khilwa' - being found alone in the company of a member of the opposite sex who is not an immediate relative.
It appears that Dr 'Ali Abu Raziza believed he was meeting one of his students when he met the woman in January or February this year; instead, he may have been the victim of entrapment by members of Saudi Arabia's feared religious police. The professor's case comes after other reports of customers in Saudi Arabia's coffee shops being detained and harshly treated by the religious police authorities for supposed 'moral' offences

Here you will notice "khilwa" which is an offence under Sharia Law ,now the questions are,is Sharia law cultural or religious based and is khilwa an offence under Sharia law and is Sharia law part of Islam?
Obviously in my country Muslims would not be allowed to punish people for Khilwa but it still is considered a crime.

 

[Kodanshi]

Response: You see, the problem is that you have never studied the entire collection of hadiths but instead you google or use other search engines to find specific hadiths to try to prove a point. Had you ever studied the hadiths together along with the qur'an, you would have learned that the individuals who are mentioned leaving islam were never muslims to begin with. They were just calling themselves muslims in order to cause mischief in the land and learn more about them so that they could bring information back to their people so that when it was time to strike the muslims, they would be better prepared. So naturally they were killed before they could kill any of the muslims.

This is complete tripe on a par with Hebrew biblical tales of people like Esau selling his birthright to ‘support’ their massacre of the Edomites. Mind you, I should know, because although I followed Islâm deeply, I still have people telling me I was never a muslim to begin with.

Funny how people can convert to Islâm without knowing bugger–all about it, but have to have seemingly read everything in existence with regards to the sunnah and Qur’ân before they can criticise it .

What about those muslimuun who HAVEN’T read lots of fiqh, or sunnah, or usul al–Fiqh? Are they not ‘proper’ muslims? Ridiculous.

 

[Fatihah]

You might want to follow your own advice, as that is specifically why I worded it exactly that way. What you say is correct, in this context, and that doubles my point right back on to you. Provide proof for YOUR statements.

Response: Amazing. You make several claims and know you can't back them up. Instead of admitting to it, you ask me to prove your allegations wrong despite the fact that you can't even prove your own claims to be right. To make matters worse, you're now copying my style of argument! Simply amazing.

 

[Father Heathen]

Response: Exactly what was the purpose of mentioning it? Your own answer to this question will give you the answer.

Are you playing coy, son? The purpose of mentioning was to provide any example of muslims being hostile and disrespectful towards other religions. They destroyed an important archaeological treasure that's now gone forever all because of some ignorant, superstitious and savage people.

 

[Fatihah]

All I see here are words. Your proof? Do you have an unbiased non-Muslim sources for this?

Response: Coming from a person who can't provide proofs for their own claims, such a request is hypocritical.

 

[Fatihah]

Do you take me for a fool? I got a bridge in New York city I'll sell to you for 600 bucks. You know the one - the Brooklyn Bridge. I got it on sale this week.

I never heard such paranoid nonsense in all my life. You Muslims love to pull the wool over people's eyes don't you. Did someone do this to you? Are these the lies they told you? I suggest you'll have better luck shilling this crap to stupid people.

And btw - all people (according to Islam) are born Islam/Muslim.

Response: Very well.

 

[Fatihah]

You said:

"you nor anyone else can quote anything from the qur'an or sunnah to show that islam isn't a religion of peace."

I provided proof - you ran from it. Ball's still in your court Muslim.

Response: And I provided a response that shows how illogical your "proof" is.

 

[Fatihah]

Funny how people can convert to Isl�m without knowing bugger�all about it, but have to have seemingly read everything in existence with regards to the sunnah and Qur��n before they can criticise it .

What about those muslimuun who HAVEN�T read lots of fiqh, or sunnah, or usul al�Fiqh? Are they not �proper� muslims? Ridiculous.

Response: No one claimed that they are not proper muslims. But you can't know the details of a book but just reading certain passages. In other words, you can not learn the true character of Muhammad or islam by just reading half of the qur'an or sunnah.

 

[Fatihah]

So any case that comes to light of the plight of victims of Sharia law ie beheading,stoning,mutilation,lashing etc is merely Propaganda,i wonder if the people who suffer these punishments would agree,well actually you could only ask the ones who are still breathing.

OK lets examine this from Amnesty International:
Amnesty International has launched an urgent appeal for a university professor in Saudi Arabia who has been sentenced to 150 lashes and eight months' imprisonment for meeting a woman in a coffee shop.
Dr Muhammad 'Ali Abu Raziza, a psychology professor at the University of Um al-Qura in Mecca, is facing the punishment after being found guilty of the Shari'a law offence of 'khilwa' - being found alone in the company of a member of the opposite sex who is not an immediate relative.
It appears that Dr 'Ali Abu Raziza believed he was meeting one of his students when he met the woman in January or February this year; instead, he may have been the victim of entrapment by members of Saudi Arabia's feared religious police. The professor's case comes after other reports of customers in Saudi Arabia's coffee shops being detained and harshly treated by the religious police authorities for supposed 'moral' offences

Here you will notice "khilwa" which is an offence under Sharia Law ,now the questions are,is Sharia law cultural or religious based and is khilwa an offence under Sharia law and is Sharia law part of Islam?
Obviously in my country Muslims would not be allowed to punish people for Khilwa but it still is considered a crime.

Response: The answer to your question is simply, "no".