Proselytizing

[9-10ths_Penguin]

deflection much?

Either way, its still men selling someone.

"People mistreat other people now, therefore when God endorses mistreating people, it's no big deal."

 

[Sunstone]

The tangent's my fault. :sorry1:

Earlier, the discussion touched on justification for proselytizing: if a person doesn't have good reason to believe what they believe, then what justification could they possibly have to decide that their "truth" is better than someone else's to the degree that they decide that the other person has to change their mind?

In response to this, Pegg gave her explanation for why she thinks she does have good reasons for what she believes, which included the "superior wisdom" of the Bible. I pointed out one example of what that "superior wisdom" actually entails.

Well, I reckon it's an interesting enough tangent.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

deflection much?

Either way, its still men selling someone.

So you do believe that no one enters the porn industry by their own will.

I was just curious. Thanks for (obliquely) answering.

 

[Pegg]

Saying "it's a cultural thing" doesn't change the fact that your Bible claims that God gave it his stamp of approval.

you would have to know what the cultural practice was at the time before you could claim God was giving approval to anything.

The cultural practice back then (and as it still is in india & other places today) is that a raped girl was no longer considered marriageable. They were no longer treated with respect in their communities. Good men would not consider them worthy of marriage because they would be viewed as someone who did the wrong thing.... silly, but true.

With that in mind, Gods law stipulated that the man who raped the girl must marry her and pay her family the bride price. So Gods law actually overturned a cruel cultural behaviour in this case. She was not to become an outcast...she was to be shown honour by being married and going on to have children and the community were to continue to respect her. God did not want her feel that she had done anything wrong, she was not degraded by God...her honour was upheld by God and thats why he demanded that men who do such things were to marry the girl if she was unwed.

of course if it were a married women whom he raped, he was to be put to death.

You're deflecting. You're the one who justified your proselytizing with the "superior wisdom" of the Bible. If someone else who advocates for the mistreatment of women comes forward to sell me on their point of view, then I'll address them directly. For the time being, it's just you who's telling me that it's a good idea to push Biblical "morality" on people.

no, i'd never push it on anyone... but i'd certainly uphold its views as superior to any alternative views and i'll always strongly defend the bible as i'm doing now.

 

[Pegg]

So you do believe that no one enters the porn industry by their own will.

I was just curious. Thanks for (obliquely) answering.

some people might do it of their own will, but thats not the point... the porn industry would not exist if people didnt support it by buying its products.

Supply and demand my friend, supply and demand.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

some people might do it of their own will, but thats not the point... the porn industry would not exist if people didnt support it by buying its products.

Supply and demand my friend, supply and demand.

Well, that's true. And the apple-selling business would not exist if people didn't buy apples.

Not everyone has sexual hangups, you know.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

you would have to know what the cultural practice was at the time before you could claim God was giving approval to anything.

The cultural practice back then (and as it still is in india & other places today) is that a raped girl was no longer considered marriageable. They were no longer treated with respect in their communities. Good men would not consider them worthy of marriage because they would be viewed as someone who did the wrong thing.... silly, but true.

With that in mind, Gods law stipulated that the man who raped the girl must marry her and pay her family the bride price. So Gods law actually overturned a cruel cultural behaviour in this case. She was not to become an outcast...she was to be shown honour by being married and going on to have children and the community were to continue to respect her. God did not want her feel that she had done anything wrong, she was not degraded by God...her honour was upheld by God and thats why he demanded that men who do such things were to marry the girl if she was unwed.

of course if it were a married women whom he raped, he was to be put to death.

So God could create the universe, give Moses supernatural powers, flood the entire earth, speak to a nation, but he couldn't tell his people to not view rape victims as damaged goods?

 

[Sunstone]

So God could create the universe, give Moses supernatural powers, flood the entire earth, speak to a nation, but he couldn't tell his people to not view rape victims as damaged goods?

Well, you know, doing that, telling them not to view rape victims as damaged goods, would have been complicated.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Saying "it's a cultural thing" doesn't change the fact that your Bible claims that God gave it his stamp of approval.



You're deflecting. You're the one who justified your proselytizing with the "superior wisdom" of the Bible. If someone else who advocates for the mistreatment of women comes forward to sell me on their point of view, then I'll address them directly. For the time being, it's just you who's telling me that it's a good idea to push Biblical "morality" on people.

It's just weird to me that owning a slave was "ok" but eating pork was like a death sentence.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

It's just weird to me that owning a slave was "ok" but eating pork was like a death sentence.

God thinks in mysterious ways.

 

[Pegg]

So God could create the universe, give Moses supernatural powers, flood the entire earth, speak to a nation, but he couldn't tell his people to not view rape victims as damaged goods?

Paul made an interesting comment in regard to the way God works:

2Cor 10:5*For we (those who teach Gods requirements) are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God

Man has his own ideas and reasonings, but God does not 'force' people to change their views.... that would negate 'free will' and God created mankind with freewill. So there would be no point in him forcing us to change.

But through his laws, he does teach us a better way to live, a morally upright way to behave toward each other and his laws highlight the flaws in mans reasoning and thinking. He can't force people to change their attitudes, but his laws will improve the lives of all who choose to follow them.

 

[Sunstone]

Paul made an interesting comment in regard to the way God works:

2Cor 10:5*For we (those who teach Gods requirements) are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God

That was Paul's clever way of defending his god against the reasoning of the Greeks. When they demonstrated his deity was a joke, he grew desperate enough to assert A is not A in the eyes of his god, then spin that to mean the Greeks were fools to believe A is A. Paul thus showed in one bold move both his contempt for reason and his resentful sense of humor.

 

[Pegg]

That was Paul's clever way of defending his god against the reasoning of the Greeks. When they demonstrated his deity was a joke, he grew desperate enough to assert A is not A in the eyes of his god, then spin that to mean the Greeks were fools to believe A is A. Paul thus showed in one bold move both his contempt for reason and his resentful sense of humor.

lol, i wouldnt call greek philosophy 'reasoning'

"eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die" does not show sound reasoning does it?

Or what of the Stoics who stressed that, because of fate or natural destiny, we should be virtuous but at the same time, indifferent to pain or pleasure. Is that the sort of reasoning you think surpasses Pauls teaching of 'accountability' and 'responsibility'?

 

[Sunstone]

lol, i wouldnt call greek philosophy 'reasoning'

I agree, you wouldn't.

"eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die" does not show sound reasoning does it?

Or what of the Stoics who stressed that, because of fate or natural destiny, we should be virtuous but at the same time, indifferent to pain or pleasure. Is that the sort of reasoning you think surpasses Pauls teaching of 'accountability' and 'responsibility'?

Your understanding of Greek philosophy is cartoonish at best. Take a university course in it, then get back to me with what you've learned.

 

[Pegg]

Your understanding of Greek philosophy is cartoonish at best. Take a university course in it, then get back to me with what you've learned.

i'll think about it....

nah, im good

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

lol, i wouldnt call greek philosophy 'reasoning'

"eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die" does not show sound reasoning does it?

Or what of the Stoics who stressed that, because of fate or natural destiny, we should be virtuous but at the same time, indifferent to pain or pleasure. Is that the sort of reasoning you think surpasses Pauls teaching of 'accountability' and 'responsibility'?

Strange that you would object to Greek philosophy, since it - including stoicism -pervades the New Testament. Christianity was a mix of Jewish thought, Greek thought, and a few of its own ideas. It was reliant on both Jewish religion and Greek philosophy without being faithful to either one.

 

[Sunstone]

Strange that you would object to Greek philosophy, since it - including stoicism -pervades the New Testament. Christianity was a mix of Jewish thought, Greek thought, and a few of its own ideas. It was reliant on both Jewish religion and Greek philosophy without being faithful to either one.

Shssssh! Don't tell Pegg. She's a whole lot funnier when she preaches Greek philosophy "isn't reasoning" while carrying around a New Testament full of it.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Paul made an interesting comment in regard to the way God works:

2Cor 10:5*For we (those who teach Gods requirements) are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God

Man has his own ideas and reasonings, but God does not 'force' people to change their views.... that would negate 'free will' and God created mankind with freewill. So there would be no point in him forcing us to change.

But through his laws, he does teach us a better way to live, a morally upright way to behave toward each other and his laws highlight the flaws in mans reasoning and thinking. He can't force people to change their attitudes, but his laws will improve the lives of all who choose to follow them.

That really doesn't make any sense...If God didn't wish to intervene why did he even bother to make laws in the first place to govern what the Jews could and could not do? Why did he have prophets?
Maybe women were just at the bottom of his priority list?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I'm pretty sure (though correct me if I'm wrong) the entire book of Ecclestias is just one giant "life sucks, things aren't new, it's some bull, when you die you die, enjoy what you are doing today".

Let's see:

Ecclesiastes 9:

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

i'll think about it....

nah, im good

Too scared to educate yourself outside of the watchtower?