Taylor Seraphim
Angel of Reason
If I think that I bound a daemon, did I?
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Prove Magic?
- Thread starter Taylor Seraphim
- Start date
If I think that I bound a daemon, did I?
Could you tell us a bit more about some of those experiences? For example, what were you trying to do, what were the methods, and what were your expectations?
I'm sorry if you've gotten that vibe from me, and that is not at all my intent. I just don't know what it is you want here. As a discussion forum, I don't know what else we can give you but words, or rhetoric. We can't invite you over for tea then walk you through a guided meditation, divination session, or energy working. We can't sit you down and help you have these experiences, we can only talk about it with words. Honestly, the best advice I have for you is to find a mentor. Find someone who can walk you through these things so you have the experiences. It should be relatively easy to find a meditation group in your area, if you live in a town of decent size. Start there, maybe? Or just leave this stuff alone and move on. Maybe it's not meant to be. Find the things that are meant to be, perhaps?
I don't know. I wasn't there. What do you think happened?
Taylor Seraphim
Angel of Reason
1) Too varied for a general synopsis to do it justice but here it goes.
I was expecting that through gnosis that my will would be manifested through the interference of a spirit, deity, or simply the manipulation of thoughts within the all consciousness.
2) Already have tried many many mentors, in fact most of my friends are magicians/mages/magi/witches/druids/warlocks (not in the sense of a male witch).
3) It was a hypothetical scenario. I was asking if you are thinking that reality is subjective based on our thoughts.
Evidence for which, that the human mind can can cause willful change that wouldn't occur in the natural order? You're right, computers are a great example of magic! I'll never even meet you and yet we communicate, that would be impossible without the human ability to question, understand, and manipulate nature. The only reason you prefer a supernatural woo definition is because, as always, you just want us all to know how dumb we are. You failed, so we should too.
Maybe we should both pop into chat some time and have a more flowing, real-time conversation about things. I'm interested in hearing any stories you'd like to share, and how you interpreted what happened. I'd aim to ask respectful questions to get you to think about the perspective you take on things.
Interesting! Not sure what to say. I mean, we all know not all mentors are equal. It could be none of them offered the approach that would work well for you. Or it could be that this stuff just isn't in the cards for you at this time, or possibly ever. I don't know - it's your life story, so you get to be the primary author, yes?
If I may ask, it seems you have an active interest in being proven wrong, as you said I think in some other thread somewhere. It seems that you want to believe in these things, right? If so, could you identify the things you feel are holding you back? Those items could serve as a starting point for shifting your way of thinking to something else if that is your goal - an act that in of itself is magic, actually.
The manner in which I understand reality is, to most people, probably quite odd. I'm not sure it's important to get into a lot of that.
For the purposes of your question, I would point out that there are maps and there is territory. The territory, presuming it "exists," is the "things as they really are" sort of reality. However, because humans are not omniscient or omnipresent, our ability to know things is... well... limited. We understand the territory through filters and limitations that create maps. Another way I have heard it described is using a camera analogy. We are like a video camera - we observe this thing called reality, but as the image is captured, we only record certain bits of the picture and that is what we actually perceive and understand. So is reality subjective based on our thoughts? The territory certainly isn't - the territory is the "things as they really are" regardless of the observer. But what about the maps? The maps are inherently subjective - they are based on the subject's perspective and observation of the territory. And one can, with some practice, learn to draw the maps on purpose to be a particular way, or align a map to match particular thoughts, as you put it.
For me, the question you ask becomes a matter of asking "okay, you had this experience of trying to bind a daemon... what's the story you want to tell about that? What's the map you want to draw about that?" That map becomes your reality for as long as you want to use that map or tell that story. When you take charge of building your own maps, there's a lot of self-trust involved. You've got to trust your own observations, your own emotions, your own gut instincts. For some people, that's really hard. They have a lot of self-doubt, or always want "proof." Overcoming that is also really hard, but it starts with wanting to believe. Or rather, it starts with will, which many magicians will say is a key ingredient of magic.
I've got no idea of any of this makes any sense to you, TS, or reaches you at all. But those are the thoughts I have right now.
@Quintessence , it's been a while since I saw you whip out the maps/territory analogy! #classic
I just want to say that I super appreciate how cordial, reasonable and respectful you're being. And I say that as a materialist watching the exchange.
Taylor Seraphim
Angel of Reason
Maybe we should both pop into chat some time and have a more flowing, real-time conversation about things. I'm interested in hearing any stories you'd like to share, and how you interpreted what happened. I'd aim to ask respectful questions to get you to think about the perspective you take on things.
Interesting! Not sure what to say. I mean, we all know not all mentors are equal. It could be none of them offered the approach that would work well for you. Or it could be that this stuff just isn't in the cards for you at this time, or possibly ever. I don't know - it's your life story, so you get to be the primary author, yes?
If I may ask, it seems you have an active interest in being proven wrong, as you said I think in some other thread somewhere. It seems that you want to believe in these things, right? If so, could you identify the things you feel are holding you back? Those items could serve as a starting point for shifting your way of thinking to something else if that is your goal - an act that in of itself is magic, actually.
The manner in which I understand reality is, to most people, probably quite odd. I'm not sure it's important to get into a lot of that.
For the purposes of your question, I would point out that there are maps and there is territory. The territory, presuming it "exists," is the "things as they really are" sort of reality. However, because humans are not omniscient or omnipresent, our ability to know things is... well... limited. We understand the territory through filters and limitations that create maps. Another way I have heard it described is using a camera analogy. We are like a video camera - we observe this thing called reality, but as the image is captured, we only record certain bits of the picture and that is what we actually perceive and understand. So is reality subjective based on our thoughts? The territory certainly isn't - the territory is the "things as they really are" regardless of the observer. But what about the maps? The maps are inherently subjective - they are based on the subject's perspective and observation of the territory. And one can, with some practice, learn to draw the maps on purpose to be a particular way, or align a map to match particular thoughts, as you put it.
For me, the question you ask becomes a matter of asking "okay, you had this experience of trying to bind a daemon... what's the story you want to tell about that? What's the map you want to draw about that?" That map becomes your reality for as long as you want to use that map or tell that story. When you take charge of building your own maps, there's a lot of self-trust involved. You've got to trust your own observations, your own emotions, your own gut instincts. For some people, that's really hard. They have a lot of self-doubt, or always want "proof." Overcoming that is also really hard, but it starts with wanting to believe. Or rather, it starts with will, which many magicians will say is a key ingredient of magic.
I've got no idea of any of this makes any sense to you, TS, or reaches you at all. But those are the thoughts I have right now.
In started a private conversation for that.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I see you know what magic is and practiced it. Why would you want to be proven wrong?
If you know it exists when you practiced it, then the question (not you or your intent) doesn't make sense to ask. Maybe an alternative way to ask is maybe " [Let us] compare the reality of magic" or maybe "What do we know about magic and our practice that shows us it is real" (With the intent of not proving it's real, just discussing the reality of its existence, properties, and characteristics.
Other than that, for me, practicing magic is more personal. You have practiced folk magic before; that is what I do. It's simple. Short. To the point. If there is ritual, usually its by full or new moon; goes outside of folk. Doesn't matter either way. Magic is flexible and fluid. You can go from one extreme and glide to another without changing the meaning of the word. Actually, I feel magic is an empty word. I wouldn't know what to use to replace it, but it's not a word I would use for my practice.
Taylor Seraphim
Angel of Reason
No I practiced magic and know that it is wrong.
It has not been able to do anything for me that was not the result of happenstance.
It also fails to be give predictable or reliable results.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I added the numbers to your quote. It's easier to understand threads by separating them by points.
This is my opinion, and maybe you are seeing magic differently than most do? For example, what is outside of coincidence or happenstance? Making a pencil float? I see magic interwoven with life; so, while one person's event they call coincidence, another person's same event they call magic.
It is how one relates to the given situation and their perspective of it not whether "I did a ritual to save my aunt from dying" however, the laws of the magical universe does not bend just because we say it does or should.
Magic* is an interrelationship with life events. It is what we do rather than what we believe that makes the magic happen. It let's us know that if my aunt had terminal cancer, magic will not save her and it will help me in ritual (and prayer) to connect with what this event is showing me: the moral of life and death. By acting or doing ritual, I am more close to this understanding. My wellbeing and perspective changes.
That is magic*
1. So, if it is wrong, that is a personal opinion and experience rather than as a whole. Everyone relates, does ritual, and prays differently; and, they see how happenstance (and interpret it) affects us differently. This is my definition, though.
What about magic is wrong to you? What do you define as characteristics behind the practices you listed? What's the magic behind the magic, in your view?
2. What are your expectations of what you wanted at one point for magic to offer you? Why is happenstance wrong and how do you define magic differently than something happening by coincidence?
What's behind the magic?
3. The natural flow of life cannot be changed just because we joined hands and walk in a circle. It doesn't change the laws of nature just because we lit a candle and said a prayer. All of these things (like floating pencils) are not about the tools and "magic" but interrelation with ourselves, others, our deities, spirits, what/whomever. It's an action not a belief.
Like when @Quintessence was talking about whether she should video tape herself doing magic. Granted, though I see her point, I feel magic can be explained it doesn't need to be video taped for it to be discussed; however, she proves my point that magic is an action not a belief.
So (my words) if you want people who see magic as a practice to prove you wrong, that doesn't make sense. I mean, we can philosophize about beliefs, philosophy, and anthology of magic. However, if we wanted to explain it--we explain what we do not what we believe.
It can only be proved wrong if you challenged the magic practitioner in what he does not what he believes about magic. You'd have to ask what people do; and, most people will say its too personal to say.
That's why its a foregone conclusion. It's personal. It's an action. To prove it wrong, you'd have to know and see what we do not ask us what we believe. I can believe that unicorns exist. However, if I don't have an interrelationship with life that involves unicorns, it doesn't exist to me regardless of my belief. That is magic.
*Always my opinion
This is my opinion, and maybe you are seeing magic differently than most do? For example, what is outside of coincidence or happenstance? Making a pencil float? I see magic interwoven with life; so, while one person's event they call coincidence, another person's same event they call magic.
It is how one relates to the given situation and their perspective of it not whether "I did a ritual to save my aunt from dying" however, the laws of the magical universe does not bend just because we say it does or should.
Magic* is an interrelationship with life events. It is what we do rather than what we believe that makes the magic happen. It let's us know that if my aunt had terminal cancer, magic will not save her and it will help me in ritual (and prayer) to connect with what this event is showing me: the moral of life and death. By acting or doing ritual, I am more close to this understanding. My wellbeing and perspective changes.
That is magic*
1. So, if it is wrong, that is a personal opinion and experience rather than as a whole. Everyone relates, does ritual, and prays differently; and, they see how happenstance (and interpret it) affects us differently. This is my definition, though.
What about magic is wrong to you? What do you define as characteristics behind the practices you listed? What's the magic behind the magic, in your view?
2. What are your expectations of what you wanted at one point for magic to offer you? Why is happenstance wrong and how do you define magic differently than something happening by coincidence?
What's behind the magic?
3. The natural flow of life cannot be changed just because we joined hands and walk in a circle. It doesn't change the laws of nature just because we lit a candle and said a prayer. All of these things (like floating pencils) are not about the tools and "magic" but interrelation with ourselves, others, our deities, spirits, what/whomever. It's an action not a belief.
Like when @Quintessence was talking about whether she should video tape herself doing magic. Granted, though I see her point, I feel magic can be explained it doesn't need to be video taped for it to be discussed; however, she proves my point that magic is an action not a belief.
So (my words) if you want people who see magic as a practice to prove you wrong, that doesn't make sense. I mean, we can philosophize about beliefs, philosophy, and anthology of magic. However, if we wanted to explain it--we explain what we do not what we believe.
It can only be proved wrong if you challenged the magic practitioner in what he does not what he believes about magic. You'd have to ask what people do; and, most people will say its too personal to say.
That's why its a foregone conclusion. It's personal. It's an action. To prove it wrong, you'd have to know and see what we do not ask us what we believe. I can believe that unicorns exist. However, if I don't have an interrelationship with life that involves unicorns, it doesn't exist to me regardless of my belief. That is magic.
*Always my opinion
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EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Magic(k) exists and I will show you how.
First of all we know that 'magic' exists . . . that is Stage Magic, sleight of hand, Houdini, Blackstone, David Blaine, Criss Angel
For the next two categories we need to have a working definition: White Magick and Lesser Black Magick
Efforts to deceive the consciousness into believing that it has been accepted into the Objective Universe, by some Supreme Being, and/or Becoming One with some external deity / energy, I define as White Magick. We see this all the time in every religion that uses propaganda to further itself. IMO it is a deception.
Lesser Black Magick is the influencing of beings, processes, or objects in the Objective Universe by the application of obscure physical or behavioral laws.
It is the subtle yet complex manipulation of psychological factors in the human personality in order to achieve a certain result. Politicians and Advertising companies are masters of this Art. When you tell a fib to get what you want, you are practicing Lesser Black Magick.
All of these, including the last one, come under the definition of "creating a change in one's environment through willed intent", but none IMO is more to the point than the last type of Magick.
Greater Black Magick
The causing of change to occur in one's Subjective Universe in accordance with one's Will which in turn causes a similar and proportionate change in the
Objective Universe. A deliberate effort is made to alter one’s subjective frame of reference, so that a detrimental thing which used to be conceptualized one way is now conceptualized in a beneficial way. This is the domain of the Ritual for it intends to create a change in one’s self by means of extracting hidden / suppressed
meaning that becomes attached to the ritual mechanisms and ultimately creates change in the Objective Universe.
- Objective Universe: Things are as they "are." Time, space, matter, energy, etc.
- Subjective Universe: Our unique personal perspective and experience of the Objective Universe
I practiced it and know it's right so neener neener.
I always sucked at math. I guess math isn't real.
In your experience perhaps.
Taylor Seraphim
Angel of Reason
Before you define white and black magic(k) I think you need to define magic(k) first.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I did
Erebus
Well-Known Member
What do you believe magic should be able to do?
How would you differentiate between a result that was due to magic and a result that was due to happenstance?
Why do you feel magic should be predictable?
Pfft.. I find it odd to expect reality in general to be predictable.