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Prove Magic?

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
I practiced it and know it's right so neener neener.



I always sucked at math. I guess math isn't real.



In your experience perhaps.

Im not trying to prove anything to you.

I am saying that you fail to provide an explanation for why my experience happened.

This is you trying to prove something to me remember?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
What do you believe magic should be able to do?

How would you differentiate between a result that was due to magic and a result that was due to happenstance?

Why do you feel magic should be predictable?

Magic should be able to do something that cannot be happenstance in a way that cannot currently be explained by known science.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
I added the numbers to your quote. It's easier to understand threads by separating them by points.



This is my opinion, and maybe you are seeing magic differently than most do? For example, what is outside of coincidence or happenstance? Making a pencil float? I see magic interwoven with life; so, while one person's event they call coincidence, another person's same event they call magic.

It is how one relates to the given situation and their perspective of it not whether "I did a ritual to save my aunt from dying" however, the laws of the magical universe does not bend just because we say it does or should.

Magic* is an interrelationship with life events. It is what we do rather than what we believe that makes the magic happen. It let's us know that if my aunt had terminal cancer, magic will not save her and it will help me in ritual (and prayer) to connect with what this event is showing me: the moral of life and death. By acting or doing ritual, I am more close to this understanding. My wellbeing and perspective changes.

That is magic*

1. So, if it is wrong, that is a personal opinion and experience rather than as a whole. Everyone relates, does ritual, and prays differently; and, they see how happenstance (and interpret it) affects us differently. This is my definition, though.

What about magic is wrong to you? What do you define as characteristics behind the practices you listed? What's the magic behind the magic, in your view?

2. What are your expectations of what you wanted at one point for magic to offer you? Why is happenstance wrong and how do you define magic differently than something happening by coincidence?

What's behind the magic?

3. The natural flow of life cannot be changed just because we joined hands and walk in a circle. It doesn't change the laws of nature just because we lit a candle and said a prayer. All of these things (like floating pencils) are not about the tools and "magic" but interrelation with ourselves, others, our deities, spirits, what/whomever. It's an action not a belief.

Like when @Quintessence was talking about whether she should video tape herself doing magic. Granted, though I see her point, I feel magic can be explained it doesn't need to be video taped for it to be discussed; however, she proves my point that magic is an action not a belief.

So (my words) if you want people who see magic as a practice to prove you wrong, that doesn't make sense. I mean, we can philosophize about beliefs, philosophy, and anthology of magic. However, if we wanted to explain it--we explain what we do not what we believe.

It can only be proved wrong if you challenged the magic practitioner in what he does not what he believes about magic. You'd have to ask what people do; and, most people will say its too personal to say.

That's why its a foregone conclusion. It's personal. It's an action. To prove it wrong, you'd have to know and see what we do not ask us what we believe. I can believe that unicorns exist. However, if I don't have an interrelationship with life that involves unicorns, it doesn't exist to me regardless of my belief. That is magic.

*Always my opinion

You can redefine magic all you wish to say it is real.

I can do the same to the word Unicorn.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You can redefine magic all you wish to say it is real.

I can do the same to the word Unicorn.

How do you define magic? Unicorns? Floating pencils?

All of us so far have said that magic isn't about this. What type of magic are you against? Do you know what witchcraft, divination, etc are or where your expectations and definitions of them different than what most books and people who practice it daily define them?

How do you compare magic to unicorns? I dont understand that unless you give a definition to work on.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Magic should be able to do something that cannot be happenstance in a way that cannot currently be explained by known science.

Why should it? What is the reason to separate it from the mudane and happenstance among other characteristics of magic natural and what others call supernatural alike?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Im not trying to prove anything to you.

I am saying that you fail to provide an explanation for why my experience happened.

This is you trying to prove something to me remember?

I know you're unlikely to answer any question, but may I ask why your experience trumps everyone else's?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Magic should be able to do something that cannot be happenstance in a way that cannot currently be explained by known science.

Why? And how do you decide when something has been sufficiently understood by science? The placebo effect can be understood scientifically and is one of the best and most accessible examples of magic out there.

You can redefine magic all you wish to say it is real.

I can do the same to the word Unicorn.

The problem is we're the one's studying and practicing magic. You can yell and scream at an evolutionary biologist that they're studying how humans came from chimps, but no matter how many time you repeat it you're still confused on the subject.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Magic should be able to do something that cannot be happenstance in a way that cannot currently be explained by known science.

I don't agree, and I find this approach extremely problematic on multiple levels. Any phenomena can be dismissively interpreted as "happenstance," all phenomena can be framed with a "scientific" interpretation, and "magic of the gaps" is about as tenable as a "gods of the gaps" (which no serious magician or theologian entertains).

But most problematic of all, because of the kind of proof you are wanting, the moment there is such proof, it would cease to be called "magic" at all, and instead get re-labeled "science." The task you present is thus thoroughly impossible. If one allows "science" to appropriate everything magical in one's worldview, of course one won't be able to find any magic; it's all been re-labeled "science!" Magic is in everyone's life. If one doesn't have a magical worldview, it gets labeled something else. Like "placebo." Or "happenstance." Or "science."
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
I don't agree, and I find this approach extremely problematic on multiple levels. Any phenomena can be dismissively interpreted as "happenstance," all phenomena can be framed with a "scientific" interpretation, and "magic of the gaps" is about as tenable as a "gods of the gaps" (which no serious magician or theologian entertains).

But most problematic of all, because of the kind of proof you are wanting, the moment there is such proof, it would cease to be called "magic" at all, and instead get re-labeled "science." The task you present is thus thoroughly impossible. If one allows "science" to appropriate everything magical in one's worldview, of course one won't be able to find any magic; it's all been re-labeled "science!" Magic is in everyone's life. If one doesn't have a magical worldview, it gets labeled something else. Like "placebo." Or "happenstance." Or "science."

There have been proof of things that have been scientifically explained.

Basically your saying,

If you see reality with logic it doesn't exist, so don't and be happy.

So its essentially an ignorance is bliss argument.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Why? And how do you decide when something has been sufficiently understood by science? The placebo effect can be understood scientifically and is one of the best and most accessible examples of magic out there.



The problem is we're the one's studying and practicing magic. You can yell and scream at an evolutionary biologist that they're studying how humans came from chimps, but no matter how many time you repeat it you're still confused on the subject.

Because the placebo effect is not magic.

So did you ignore that I have studied and practiced magic, or did you forget?

Also there are people who believe that the lizard aliens control the white house. Does that make them more likely to find the truth on the subject?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Everyone.

This definition of magic I am wanting to have proven to exist is.

Magic: the power of influencing the course of events by using supernatural forces.

So if your wanting to prove some other definition of magic that you use, then do not waste your or my time.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Everyone.

This definition of magic I am wanting to have proven to exist is.

Magic: the power of influencing the course of events by using supernatural forces.

So if your wanting to prove some other definition of magic that you use, then do not waste your or my time.
But that is a useless and incorrect definition of magic "Magic: the power of influencing the course of events by using supernatural forces."
What is 'power' ? Magic(k) is more than influencing events, and 'supernatural forces' takes this discussion into the role playing realm . . . have fun floundering around with your Ouija board definition there Merlin!
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Okay, so in the OP, you say:
Is there something you or I could do to prove that magic exists to me?

I would really really love to believe that it does, but I am a skeptic at heart.

You provide no other context or explanation, and ask for proof.

Later, you get ticked off because the responses you're getting aren't the proof you want, and people are questioning what it is you mean. So, NOW you provide some--but by no means all--of the necessary background to understand what you are asking for in this thread.

Okay lets get something straight.

I HAVE tried magic.

Wiccan traditions, ceremonial high magic, folk witchcraft, rune magic, tarot readings, neo-elemental magic, and chaos magick.

So I am not talking out of my *** here Quintessence.

Now if you would like to address the thread, that would be great.

I am in a really foul mood at the moment because I am being treated like an ignorant child for asking a question on a subject that I am knowledgeable in so that I can be proven wrong and all I get is rhetoric.

Finally, in post #55 you tell what it is you're really wanting everyone to prove--a definition of magic that does not match what the people you are asking for feedback from ACTUALLY understand or do.

If you had mentioned at the beginning, 1) your definition of magic, 2) that you have tried different kinds of magic, and 3) maybe described how you perceived that they failed for you (because quite frankly, there is NOTHING in any of your posts that would make anyone think you actually know anything about or have actually tried magic), and finally, 4) not responded to everyone in such a dismissive, confrontational manner...you might have actually gotten a much better discussion and some good information, right up front, instead of nothing but an ongoing argument.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Then the word magic has no meaning for the purposes of defining an action as magic, so I really do not care to dive deeper into your interpretation.

Why? A magical act is one that wouldn't happen within the natural order. That pretty much IS supernatural or non natural. Without human consciousness, would the internet exist? Would we have medication? Would we have therapy? Would we have television shows and fictional movie universes? None of this would exist if nature just went on without anything questioning it or manipulating it.

If you have not forgotten this is you trying to prove to me, not us trying to prove to each other.

Well I can't get anywhere in a discussion when you refuse to engage, so please answer the question.

Because the placebo effect is not magic.

So did you ignore that I have studied and practiced magic, or did you forget?

Also there are people who believe that the lizard aliens control the white house. Does that make them more likely to find the truth on the subject?

Well according to you, since you refuse to address my question, personal experience is all that matters, and so you're forced to accept things like lizard people. You could easily clear this up if you just answered questions.

Everyone.

This definition of magic I am wanting to have proven to exist is.

Magic: the power of influencing the course of events by using supernatural forces.

So if your wanting to prove some other definition of magic that you use, then do not waste your or my time.

I'm going to define the earth as flat. Since there is not flat earth, I'm going to say earth doesn't exist. See how dumb I look?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
@Taylor Seraphim , here's an illustration. As a mindless, mechanistic animal the progression of my life would be normality ---> pain ---> depression ---> drug abuse ---> death. As a being capable of magic, going against that mechanistic animal nature, my path went normality ---> pain ---> depression ---> drug abuse ---> self awareness ---> therapy ---> medication ---> sobriety and coping ---> success.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I just have to throw in here that as a Pagan and a Druid, I do not agree with defining magic/spellcraft as something that goes against nature. In my view, there is no such thing as going against nature, as everything is nature. Notions of magic/spellcraft that involve "conquering" nature are downright antithetical to my tradition.
 
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