Prove Magic?

[beenherebeforeagain]

Yeah lets ask 10 Wiccan witches what magic is and get one coherent answer?

Or better yet lets ask 10 Chaotes what magic is and get one coherent answer?

Now If I wanted you to prove your definition of magic I would say can you prove beenherebeforeagain's definition of magic.

When I put up a word in the title I would expect you to assume it is the standard English definition unless told otherwise.

So, you admit that you knew when you posted your OP originally in the Magic DIR, you were expecting everyone else to *magically* know that you were meaning your dictionary definition, and not for example, the definition that Crowley created and many people use. Or the definition that Gardner created and used, and those in that tradition use. Or...oh never mind; you should get the picture. People learn magic in one or more traditions, and the different traditions have different definitions. If you had really studied magic at all, or talked to the people you practiced with, you'd already be aware of that...but you aren't...so you didn't...or you're trolling....

Because you already know that no one, in any tradition, has the same definition as anyone else in the same tradition...not to even compare between traditions. Therefore, rather than answering from their own tradition, they will just *magically* AUTOMATICALLY know that you mean a standard dictionary definition.

And, that you want them to prove to you that the standard dictionary definition is true...when none of them use the standard dictionary definition.

And, that people representing different traditions and backgrounds should all answer in exactly the same way.

And, they should know without you telling them that you've studied magic, and tried to practice magic with other people.

Yep, all that was so abundantly clear from your OP and the following posts...

I had forgotten, but I now recall previous threads wherein you were so stuck on general dictionary definitions against all evidence that they are not appropriate in other uses. I can only conclude that you are trolling. I'll not be responding further to any of your posts, as I find I've wasted enough time with this.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

You're so caught up on definitions rather than the concepts behind them. Why don't you try what you pretended you were here for and listen to those who know what they're talking about? You won't answer questions, you won't accept our explanations, you refuse to acknowledge that words can have many definitions, and you've been over all either hostile or simple non engaging, brushing everything off instead of addressing us. WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM US?!

Supernatural magic doesn't exist. All magicians here seems to agree. You're right, isn't that all that matters to you?

For the last ****ing time.

I WANT TO BE WRONG!

If you don't like the ****ing English definition of magic go mail Merriam Webster or some other damn dictionary.

If you do not have anything to say about the existence of magic as I defined it LEAVE!

 

[1137]

For the last ****ing time.

I WANT TO BE WRONG!

If you don't like the ****ing English definition of magic go mail Merriam Webster or some other damn dictionary.

If you do not have anything to say about the existence of magic as I defined it LEAVE!

You're a lost cause.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

We're supposed to be able to cast the spell "burning hands" from the 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons players handbook. Unfortunately, in a past life we failed our admissions test into the Tower of Magi, and were reborn in a reality where the laws of reality do not allow us to cast the spell "burning hands" or even a simple cantip like "acid splash." Thus, we are left envisioning our past lives through the magic of hollywood and theater, and failing to satisfy people like the OP. Woe is us!

Thanks for a bull**** strawman.

Really appreciate it.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

You're a lost cause.

Agreed, now leave me alone.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

So, you admit that you knew when you posted your OP originally in the Magic DIR, you were expecting everyone else to *magically* know that you were meaning your dictionary definition, .

When people use words they are to be assumed to mean the dictionary definition not people's jargon.

I guess I should have to ask you if your using a jargon definition of every word in your sentence rather than the dictionary one.

 

[Erebus]

1) Because otherwise it is not in any way true to the original meaning of the word.

2) Here is an example, would it be possible for you to tell me the male Alaskan timber wolf I had as a child's name? If you could the chances of it being happenstance are astronomically lower than the chances of it not.

1) So would you say then that what is or isn't magical is dependent on what we currently understand? Having the qualifier that magic must be beyond our current scientific knowledge would seem to imply that. Is the tide no longer magical now we understand what causes it?

2) If you cared to tell me truthfully what his name was (assuming of course you were being truthful about having one in the first place) then I certainly could. Would that make the act of me telling you his name magical?

 

[Quintessence]

Thanks for a bull**** strawman.

Hmm. Well, this sounds like something that requires a Dungeons and Dragons spell or otherworldy fantasy magic to me:

2) Here is an example, would it be possible for you to tell me the male Alaskan timber wolf I had as a child's name? If you could the chances of it being happenstance are astronomically lower than the chances of it not.

Also, a timber wolf? You got a permit for that? Or was this a stuffed animal?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

1) So would you say then that what is or isn't magical is dependent on what we currently understand? Having the qualifier that magic must be beyond our current scientific knowledge would seem to imply that. Is the tide no longer magical now we understand what causes it?

2) If you cared to tell me truthfully what his name was (assuming of course you were being truthful about having one in the first place) then I certainly could. Would that make the act of me telling you his name magical?

1) I suppose that makes sense, this is why I changed the definition I used to a more accurate and widely accepted one later in the conversation.

2) No, if you ascertained the name by supernatural means which is the only possible way you could know given the circumstances of how many people know his name then it would.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Hmm. Well, this sounds like something that requires a Dungeons and Dragons spell or otherworldy fantasy magic to me:



Also, a timber wolf? You got a permit for that? Or was this a stuffed animal?

1) Yet many modern magicians use astrology and tarot cards.

2) You do not need a permit outside of city limits where I lived.

 

[Quintessence]

1) Yet many modern magicians use astrology and tarot cards.

Yes, but I sure as blazes don't pretend like they're a spell out of my D&D players handbook (LARPing notwithstanding).

Basically, you're not wanting proof of magic, you're wanting proof of paranormal phenomena, like psychics. Well, considering many practitioners of magic think that stuff is a load of $#@%, myself included, you are likely targeting the wrong audience.

 

[Erebus]

1) I suppose that makes sense, this is why I changed the definition I used to a more accurate and widely accepted one later in the conversation.

2) No, if you ascertained the name by supernatural means which is the only possible way you could know given the circumstances of how many people know his name then it would.

Ahh I've spotted your definition now. Missed it while scanning through the thread.

Supernatural kind of throws a spanner in the works for me. I don't believe anything can be supernatural as everything is a part of nature.

As far as discerning the name of your wolf goes, I can't tell you his name via "supernatural" means and would be very sceptical of somebody who claimed they could.

Just out of interest though ... let's say, hypothetically, one of us got his name right. Could that not be chalked up to coincidence?

 

[Erebus]

As an aside, I just finished a slice of chocolate tart. It was pretty magical!

Magic:
Noun

1.2A quality of being beautiful and delightful in a way that seems remote from daily life

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, but I sure as blazes don't pretend like they're a spell out of my D&D players handbook (LARPing notwithstanding).

Basically, you're not wanting proof of magic, you're wanting proof of paranormal phenomena, like psychics. Well, considering many practitioners of magic think that stuff is a load of $#@%, myself included, you are likely targeting the wrong audience.

LOL

Thought it was just me.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Ahh I've spotted your definition now. Missed it while scanning through the thread.

Supernatural kind of throws a spanner in the works for me. I don't believe anything can be supernatural as everything is a part of nature.

As far as discerning the name of your wolf goes, I can't tell you his name via "supernatural" means and would be very sceptical of somebody who claimed they could.

Just out of interest though ... let's say, hypothetically, one of us got his name right. Could that not be chalked up to coincidence?

Like I said, the chances of it being a coincidence would be lower than the chances of magic being real in that instance.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Yes, but I sure as blazes don't pretend like they're a spell out of my D&D players handbook (LARPing notwithstanding).

Basically, you're not wanting proof of magic, you're wanting proof of paranormal phenomena, like psychics. Well, considering many practitioners of magic think that stuff is a load of $#@%, myself included, you are likely targeting the wrong audience.

Your refuting a strawman.

I never claimed it is anything out of a D&D spell book.

In fact the majority of people whom I know that are some form of magician dislike how magic works in D&D.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

As an aside, I just finished a slice of chocolate tart. It was pretty magical!

Magic:
Noun

1.2A quality of being beautiful and delightful in a way that seems remote from daily life

The point is.

Don't come to my thread to try to change what I am asking about.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Magic, according to Merriam is:

1a: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces: magic rites or incantations

2a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source: something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/magic

Questions:

Supernatural, according to Merriam, "is unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature : of, relating to, or seeming to come from magic, a god, etc."

There are a lot of things that cannot be explained by science or the laws of nature. So, in that respect, since we do not know everything about our planet and universe (and sorry to add this: we are not god), then anything we cant explain is, um, supernatural.

1.

a. However, what is supernatural "power"?
b. What are the attributes to the supernatural that practitioners use to "do" magic?
c. What is behind how we float a pencil?

2.

a. What does it mean to be over natural forces?
b. What characteristics of the supernatural that is different from the natural?

It can't be the tools people use in ritual. It can't be the rituals you see.

e. What is behind the mask?

3.

a. What makes the supernatural extra ordinary according to the dictionary?
b. Why would you think the dictionary can define a word that, by its religious definition, is purely relative and subjective?

c. How can you put the definition of magic in a box?



Also, if you ask an everyday Joe Smoe what magic is, he may say magic tricks and slight of hand.

If you ask christian Jane Smith, that same word can be power (which hasnt yet been defined) from satan

If you ask Muslim Carol, you may hear magic as a force that can only come from a supernatural creator.

These are all common definitions of the word.

However.... You are asking in a Magic DIR where people practice different forms of magic and define the word in a personal way according to their beliefs, practices, and/or traditions. You are not asking them as if they are an English professor and you want to know the definition of Callow (which is the Dic, new word of the day ). You are asking a personal question and expecting a non-personal answer.

If you want to use these definitions, then going into the supernatural phenomena (or however its spelled) would be better. It will give you an idea of whats behind the magic in a non-religious and non-personal point of view.

From what I gather here, we are telling you how we define magic from a religious (or however you guys define it) point of view not objectively and certainly not restricted to the dictionary.

I mean. If you ask who god is to a Hindu, Christian, and Pagan, they will give you three different answers. You look in the dictionary, it gives you one. You cant fit their definitions into a box. Its the other way around.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Magic, according to Merriam is:

1a: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces: magic rites or incantations

2a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source: something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/magic

Questions:

Supernatural, according to Merriam, "is unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature : of, relating to, or seeming to come from magic, a god, etc."

There are a lot of things that cannot be explained by science or the laws of nature. So, in that respect, since we do not know everything about our planet and universe (and sorry to add this: we are not god), then anything we cant explain is, um, supernatural.

1.

a. However, what is supernatural "power"?
b. What are the attributes to the supernatural that practitioners use to "do" magic?
c. What is behind how we float a pencil?

2.

a. What does it mean to be over natural forces?
b. What characteristics of the supernatural that is different from the natural?

It can't be the tools people use in ritual. It can't be the rituals you see.

e. What is behind the mask?

3.

a. What makes the supernatural extra ordinary according to the dictionary?
b. Why would you think the dictionary can define a word that, by its religious definition, is purely relative and subjective?

c. How can you put the definition of magic in a box?



Also, if you ask an everyday Joe Smoe what magic is, he may say magic tricks and slight of hand.

If you ask christian Jane Smith, that same word can be power (which hasnt yet been defined) from satan

If you ask Muslim Carol, you may hear magic as a force that can only come from a supernatural creator.

These are all common definitions of the word.

However.... You are asking in a Magic DIR where people practice different forms of magic and define the word in a personal way according to their beliefs, practices, and/or traditions. You are not asking them as if they are an English professor and you want to know the definition of Callow (which is the Dic, new word of the day ). You are asking a personal question and expecting a non-personal answer.

If you want to use these definitions, then going into the supernatural phenomena (or however its spelled) would be better. It will give you an idea of whats behind the magic in a non-religious and non-personal point of view.

From what I gather here, we are telling you how we define magic from a religious (or however you guys define it) point of view not objectively and certainly not restricted to the dictionary.

I mean. If you ask who god is to a Hindu, Christian, and Pagan, they will give you three different answers. You look in the dictionary, it gives you one. You cant fit their definitions into a box. Its the other way around.

Explain =/= know everything about.

Please try again.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Explain =/= know everything about.

Please try again.

Did you read my post?

If you did not, than I have no clue how that relates to my post. I dislike sarcasm. Take your time. Read the post. If you are going by dictionary definition of magic which, according to magic practitioners are not define by the dictionary, you are asking the wrong audience.