Prove Magic?

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Is there something you or I could do to prove that magic exists to me?

I would really really love to believe that it does, but I am a skeptic at heart.

I have had numerous experiences that many would call supernatural.
I believe it is because I pursue the highest possible ethical ideal.
Such experiences are the gifts of spirits who also have that ideal.
The moment one steps off the highest path, the experiences are gone.

Its a very difficult set of criteria to attain.
It takes infinite introspection.
It is without end, and there is no final state.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Ooo I have one.

troll2
trōl/
verb
gerund or present participle: trolling.

1. informal
   make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them. "if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"

So are you admitting to it?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I have had numerous experiences that many would call supernatural.
I believe it is because I pursue the highest possible ethical ideal.
Such experiences are the gifts of spirits who also have that ideal.
The moment one steps off the highest path, the experiences are gone.

Its a very difficult set of criteria to attain.
It takes infinite introspection.
It is without end, and there is no final state.

What is this ethical ideal and how do you know it is the highest possible.

 

[Acim]

Can you specify?

I'd kind of like to, but from reading of this thread, I'm not sure how to proceed.

I'd really want to know what you (or anyone really) means by supernatural.

I think exploring that beyond just superficial understandings would be way in which to help you see certain things as magical which may already be seen as non-magical, but more or less taken for granted and not really all that well understood (by you or by scientific understandings). But plausible it just results in not really wanting to explore certain things and thinking science has spoken to it and/or you rather not delve deeper into something that you just assume take for granted.

Does that make sense?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I'd kind of like to, but from reading of this thread, I'm not sure how to proceed.

I'd really want to know what you (or anyone really) means by supernatural.

I think exploring that beyond just superficial understandings would be way in which to help you see certain things as magical which may already be seen as non-magical, but more or less taken for granted and not really all that well understood (by you or by scientific understandings). But plausible it just results in not really wanting to explore certain things and thinking science has spoken to it and/or you rather not delve deeper into something that you just assume take for granted.

Does that make sense?

So consider everything that happens to not yet be fully explained with science as magic?

 

[Acim]

So consider everything that happens to not yet be fully explained with science as magic?

Interesting consideration, but not what I was getting at.

I consider certain simple things magical. Like the scientific method is to me magical. It's not exactly explained by scientific understandings (and is taken for granted) and yet in another thread I recently learned there is no one method. So the method that is what I believe the vast majority would consider the 'one method' would actually be rather mysterious in how it is conceived of and the impact it has on possibly all of science / scientific understandings. The idea that there is multiple methods for science, just adds to the mystery, really.

Also, since the scientific method isn't found in physical reality/nature, then I'm kind of thinking it might be grounds for actually being supernatural.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I consider certain simple things magical. Like the scientific method is to me magical

Stopping you right there.

You can redefine magic to whatever you like to try to make it seems plausible.

Describe how you do magic/ cast a spell/ do an intention/etc.

 

[Acim]

Stopping you right there.

You can redefine magic to whatever you like to try to make it seems plausible.

Describe how you do magic/ cast a spell/ do an intention/etc.

But this just begs the question of supernatural, doesn't it? If I'm doing anything, would you conclude that I am a supernatural force? Or would you instead begin with the belief I am natural and everything I do is filtered through 'natural' actions?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

But this just begs the question of supernatural, doesn't it? If I'm doing anything, would you conclude that I am a supernatural force? Or would you instead begin with the belief I am natural and everything I do is filtered through 'natural' actions?

Can you answer in how do it?

 

[Acim]

Can you answer in how do it?

How to do the scientific method?

Can you explain what you mean by supernatural?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

How to do the scientific method?

Can you explain what you mean by supernatural?

Describe how you do magic/ cast a spell/ do an intention/etc.

Answer this.

I am not asking you how you define magic.

 

[Acim]

Answer this.

Okay, I'll provide an example. I meditate specifically about a person I may be having a relationship problem with and invoke feelings of forgiveness (overlooking my perception of their errors) into what is my conceptualization of their being. I may also invoke things like seeing them in a basking glow of light, or similar such ideas. I do all this with the idea that it will plausibly impact my further judgments of who they are to me, but also with the hope that it will impact the relationship and overcome any (and I do mean literally any) problems I am having in relating with them.

In some cases, this has resulted in circumstances that I would've though not possible prior to my invoking a different perspective. Such as the person within days contacting me to express regret or apologies and desire to be on more friendly terms. That strikes me as 'magical' when it occurs and as if a supernatural force moved them. More often than not, I'm the one that changes and may express regret or apologies, which may not seem magical, but considering where things stood just hours/days before the 'action I took' (i.e. the forgiveness invocation), it is a significant change.

And sometimes, I'm just not feeling it. I go through the motions, but am not particularly moved to take any further action with regards to the relationship, but feel forgiveness helps in not having me be hung up on a grudge.

I consider forgiveness to be a white magic type action, but I'm guessing you don't care how I define it.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Okay, I'll provide an example. I meditate specifically about a person I may be having a relationship problem with and invoke feelings of forgiveness (overlooking my perception of their errors) into what is my conceptualization of their being. I may also invoke things like seeing them in a basking glow of light, or similar such ideas. I do all this with the idea that it will plausibly impact my further judgments of who they are to me, but also with the hope that it will impact the relationship and overcome any (and I do mean literally any) problems I am having in relating with them.

In some cases, this has resulted in circumstances that I would've though not possible prior to my invoking a different perspective. Such as the person within days contacting me to express regret or apologies and desire to be on more friendly terms. That strikes me as 'magical' when it occurs and as if a supernatural force moved them. More often than not, I'm the one that changes and may express regret or apologies, which may not seem magical, but considering where things stood just hours/days before the 'action I took' (i.e. the forgiveness invocation), it is a significant change.

And sometimes, I'm just not feeling it. I go through the motions, but am not particularly moved to take any further action with regards to the relationship, but feel forgiveness helps in not having me be hung up on a grudge.

I consider forgiveness to be a white magic type action, but I'm guessing you don't care how I define it.

Does it work 100% of the time if you get the feeling that it does?

 

[Acim]

Does it work 100% of the time if you get the feeling that it does?

That's an interesting question. By work, I think you mean does it lead to the other person treating my differently, yes? If that is what you mean, I would say no, but actually would question that understanding myself. I more and more understand forgiveness to be all about me, but provided example that I thought would help you understand how I use magic in my life. If it did work 100% of the time, I think it would already be well known and wouldn't seem all that interesting. That it has worked at all in having an effect with the other person based on my invocation strikes me as magical. But, the times it doesn't work actually makes me think I am needing to work on my perception at a deeper level than what I have already attempted.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

That's an interesting question. By work, I think you mean does it lead to the other person treating my differently, yes? If that is what you mean, I would say no, but actually would question that understanding myself. I more and more understand forgiveness to be all about me, but provided example that I thought would help you understand how I use magic in my life. If it did work 100% of the time, I think it would already be well known and wouldn't seem all that interesting. That it has worked at all in having an effect with the other person based on my invocation strikes me as magical. But, the times it doesn't work actually makes me think I am needing to work on my perception at a deeper level than what I have already attempted.

Does the other person forgive you more than he/she would then if you had not done that?

 

[Quintessence]

Trying to think of a good thesis question. What ye and @1137 thinks?

I don't know if you need one. You could just create a discussion topic for people to describe how they understand these things. It could go somewhere like Comparative Religion (a discussion only forum) if you want some more diversity of responses without the thread getting derailed by arguments/debates.

 

[Acim]

Does the other person forgive you more than he/she would then if you had not done that?

I don't generally find that information out, and don't feel I need to. It's invoked to change my perception (dramatically). That it works to seemingly impact the other person(s) strikes me as magical when it occurs.

I'm aware of the idea that time heals wounds (in relationships), but I would say forgiveness noticeably speeds things up on my end, and occasionally appears to speed things up from the other side. I do notice a real difference between this approach and 'sweeping things under the rug' as if that is another way to move the positive part of the relationship along.

 

[EtuMalku]

Its the English definition, if you don't like it make up your own word.

It's an outdated definition

 

[Quintessence]

It's an outdated definition

I wouldn't say it's outdated; it simply doesn't reflect specialized usages. No standard dictionary does. It's one of their limitations.

Another limitation is the fact that a dictionary is not an encyclopedia, much less an exhaustively authoritative review of a complex subject. Aspects of this thread are reminding me of some important points raised in this thread over here: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/i-invoke-the-holy-dictionary.185581/

I think a bit of Halsted's words bears repeating here:

"Now, pulling out a dictionary might seem like an innocuous act, but frequently it isn’t. Often the motivation behind the turn to the dictionary is not a desire for greater understanding, but a desire for control. Dictionary worshipers do not want to understand how others use words; rather, they want to control how others use words."
*source*​

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I don't generally find that information out, and don't feel I need to. It's invoked to change my perception (dramatically). That it works to seemingly impact the other person(s) strikes me as magical when it occurs.

I'm aware of the idea that time heals wounds (in relationships), but I would say forgiveness noticeably speeds things up on my end, and occasionally appears to speed things up from the other side. I do notice a real difference between this approach and 'sweeping things under the rug' as if that is another way to move the positive part of the relationship along.

So you are not sure that is works, and you do not care if it does.

You only do it because it makes you feel better and in control.