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Prove Magic?

1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Carlita said:
Magic, according to Merriam is:

1a: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces: magic rites or incantations

2a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source: something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/magic

:fallenleaf: Questions:

Supernatural, according to Merriam, "is unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature : of, relating to, or seeming to come from magic, a god, etc."

There are a lot of things that cannot be explained by science or the laws of nature. So, in that respect, since we do not know everything about our planet and universe (and sorry to add this: we are not god), then anything we cant explain is, um, supernatural.

1.

a. However, what is supernatural "power"?
b. What are the attributes to the supernatural that practitioners use to "do" magic?
c. What is behind how we float a pencil?

2.

a. What does it mean to be over natural forces?
b. What characteristics of the supernatural that is different from the natural?

It can't be the tools people use in ritual. It can't be the rituals you see.

e. What is behind the mask?

3.

a. What makes the supernatural extra ordinary according to the dictionary?
b. Why would you think the dictionary can define a word that, by its religious definition, is purely relative and subjective?

c. How can you put the definition of magic in a box?

:fallenleaf:

Also, if you ask an everyday Joe Smoe what magic is, he may say magic tricks and slight of hand.

If you ask christian Jane Smith, that same word can be power (which hasnt yet been defined) from satan

If you ask Muslim Carol, you may hear magic as a force that can only come from a supernatural creator.

These are all common definitions of the word.

However.... :fallenleaf: You are asking in a Magic DIR where people practice different forms of magic and define the word in a personal way according to their beliefs, practices, and/or traditions. You are not asking them as if they are an English professor and you want to know the definition of Callow (which is the Dic, new word of the day ;)). You are asking a personal question and expecting a non-personal answer.

If you want to use these definitions, then going into the supernatural phenomena (or however its spelled) would be better. It will give you an idea of whats behind the magic in a non-religious and non-personal point of view.

From what I gather here, we are telling you how we define magic from a religious (or however you guys define it) point of view not objectively and certainly not restricted to the dictionary.

I mean. If you ask who god is to a Hindu, Christian, and Pagan, they will give you three different answers. You look in the dictionary, it gives you one. You cant fit their definitions into a box. Its the other way around.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, you win the internet this month.
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Carlita said:
:fallenleaf: Questions:

Supernatural, according to Merriam, "is unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature : of, relating to, or seeming to come from magic, a god, etc."

There are a lot of things that cannot be explained by science or the laws of nature. So, in that respect, since we do not know everything about our planet and universe (and sorry to add this: we are not god), then anything we cant explain is, um, supernatural.

1.

a. However, what is supernatural "power"?
b. What are the attributes to the supernatural that practitioners use to "do" magic?
c. What is behind how we float a pencil?

2.

a. What does it mean to be over natural forces?
b. What characteristics of the supernatural that is different from the natural?

It can't be the tools people use in ritual. It can't be the rituals you see.

e. What is behind the mask?

3.

a. What makes the supernatural extra ordinary according to the dictionary?
b. Why would you think the dictionary can define a word that, by its religious definition, is purely relative and subjective?

c. How can you put the definition of magic in a box?

:fallenleaf:
Click to expand...

This right here might make an excellent thread starter on its own. I'd encourage you to start one. :D
 
Taylor Seraphim

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Carlita said:
Did you read my post?

If you did not, than I have no clue how that relates to my post. I dislike sarcasm. Take your time. Read the post. If you are going by dictionary definition of magic which, according to magic practitioners are not define by the dictionary, you are asking the wrong audience.
Click to expand...

I did read the post.

You made an asertation that is untrue and rested your point on it.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Taylor Seraphim said:
I did read the post.

You made an asertation that is untrue and rested your point on it.
Click to expand...

Ima sum it up.

The dictionary says that magic is a supernatural force and power. (Click the link I gave)

The word magic to practitioners in a Magic DIR define it according to their own beliefs/traditions/practices not by the dictionary.

If you want to know what is behind the magic (divination, witchcraft, etc as said earlier in your posts), then you are asking the wrong audience.

You are asking people to define a personal word and expecting objective or non-personal answers.

If you can't see that, it is like an atheist asking a christian to prove god is real. Again, the word god as with magic is a personal word. The dictionary gives a common definition. However, the dictionary is not the "bible".

You are asking the wrong audience.
 
Taylor Seraphim

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Carlita said:
Ima sum it up.

The dictionary says that magic is a supernatural force and power. (Click the link I gave)

The word magic to practitioners in a Magic DIR define it according to their own beliefs/traditions/practices not by the dictionary.

If you want to know what is behind the magic (divination, witchcraft, etc as said earlier in your posts), then you are asking the wrong audience.

You are asking people to define a personal word and expecting objective or non-personal answers.

If you can't see that, it is like an atheist asking a christian to prove god is real. Again, the word god as with magic is a personal word. The dictionary gives a common definition. However, the dictionary is not the "bible".

You are asking the wrong audience.
Click to expand...

So your saying people should be able to believe whatever they want by changing the definition whenever it suits them?

That's called self-delusion.
 
Taylor Seraphim

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
If the mods could close this thread I would be grateful.

This is not going to go anywhere because no one wants to stick to one definition of the subject being discussed.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Taylor Seraphim said:
So your saying people should be able to believe whatever they want by changing the definition whenever it suits them?

That's called self-delusion.
Click to expand...

The point is there is no fixed definition for words like magic, god, spirit, soul, etc. They are all relative and based on a persons beliefs/traditions/practices.

My great aunt used to write for Webster's dictionary. She helped with finding "working" not fixed definitions of words people use on an everyday basis. She, and other humans, try to find words for an accurate definition. However, the dictionary is bias.

For example, in the earily 1990s, the dictionary said marriage is between male and female. If you look in the dictionary now, it says marriage is between male and female and a civil union or legal contract between two males or two females. (Did an essay on this. Found both dictionaries with different definitions. Amazing.)

The dictionary isn't the Bible (aka, a source of authority). It's not the source of religious words especially when those words apply to peoples' personal beliefs/practices/traditions.

They have the right to change definitions because there is no fixed definition.

You can't change how water is defined. However, the supernatural, how do you define that? What does it mean by power?

You have to move from the dictionary and take and accept what the practitioners tell you. My aunt was a bible belt, hard stone, christian. She would never put an objective definition for magic or even ask practitioners what the definition is. It's all based on christian views and fantasy (if they try to make it objective).
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Taylor Seraphim said:
But there is a standard,
Click to expand...

Asking honestly. For religious words, what is the standard based on?

Take the word god.... what is the standard that makes the definition fixed?

Majority rules?

Half the people who believe in god do not see him, her, or it as a supernatural, supreme authority yet the dictionary says that is the definition.

It has no fixed and accurate standard. Unless it is scientifically proven and it becomes natural rather than what they call supernatural, I do feel you have to accept multiple definitions of the word.
 
Taylor Seraphim

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Carlita said:
Asking honestly. For religious words, what is the standard based on?

Take the word god.... what is the standard that makes the definition fixed?

Majority rules?

Half the people who believe in god do not see him, her, or it as a supernatural, supreme authority yet the dictionary says that is the definition.

It has no fixed and accurate standard. Unless it is scientifically proven and it becomes natural rather than what they call supernatural, I do feel you have to accept multiple definitions of the word.
Click to expand...

So you can shift around the word all you want whenever you want to try to believe it is true unless science proves or disproves it?

Okay lets put this another way.

How can I be sure that any word you are saying uses the common definitions?
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Taylor Seraphim said:
When people use words they are to be assumed to mean the dictionary definition not people's jargon.

I guess I should have to ask you if your using a jargon definition of every word in your sentence rather than the dictionary one.
Click to expand...

Take this example.

When we ask "What is the definition of a heart?"

The fixed definition is: an primary muscle and organ pumping blood in and out of the body for healthy function. (Not dict. verbatim)

However, if you go into a Church (like you come in a Magic DIR) and you ask the same question "What is the definition of a heart?"

You might get "the heart is where the holy spirit lies" or "the heart is the spirit of god" or whatever.

It depends on what "Church" you go to (or who you ask) to where your answers could be an organ from a doctor to the combination of the mind/body/soul to from a Spiritualist.

If you came to a doctor and say "prove to me the heart isn't real?" he'd look at you silly.

If you go to a Christian and say "prove the heart isn't real" he probably be confused but wont look at you silly. Why? Because there is no fixed definition for the heart in a religious context. He will explain it from his faith. Ask a Pagan, from hers. Ask a Hindu from his. and so forth.

Magic is the exact same way.
 
Taylor Seraphim

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Carlita said:
Take this example.

When we ask "What is the definition of a heart?"

The fixed definition is: an primary muscle and organ pumping blood in and out of the body for healthy function. (Not dict. verbatim)

However, if you go into a Church (like you come in a Magic DIR) and you ask the same question "What is the definition of a heart?"

You might get "the heart is where the holy spirit lies" or "the heart is the spirit of god" or whatever.

It depends on what "Church" you go to (or who you ask) to where your answers could be an organ from a doctor to the combination of the mind/body/soul to from a Spiritualist.

If you came to a doctor and say "prove to me the heart isn't real?" he'd look at you silly.

If you go to a Christian and say "prove the heart isn't real" he probably be confused but wont look at you silly. Why? Because there is no fixed definition for the heart in a religious context. He will explain it from his faith. Ask a Pagan, from hers. Ask a Hindu from his. and so forth.

Magic is the exact same way.
Click to expand...


What do you mean by the word "take"?

Sorry I need to clarify, that could mean anyone's jargon.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Basically. The dictionary defines abstract words by their working definition. However, when people think dictionary, they think everything has to be concrete. I know for a fact its not.

Taylor Seraphim said:
How can I be sure that any word you are saying uses the common definitions?
Click to expand...

If I am quoting from the dictionary (knowing how you view the dictionary), then that's the common foundation of our conversation. That's why I used it to compare. If you consider the dictionary the common definition, then we will go off of that.

My point (and opinion) is, though, you are asking practitioners to give you one fixed definition of magic and then prove it wrong to you. It's not a dishonest request. In my opinion, it illogical.

I mean, years ago when the U.S. defined itself as a protestant nation and justification for slavery was used from the Bible, the common definition was what worked back then. Things changed. Religion is no different.

I mean...

If I switch shoes a bit. Since the dictionary changes based by generation, is there a fixed definition you have that we can base our answers on?
 
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Ooo I have one.

troll2
trōl/
verb
gerund or present participle: trolling.
  1. informal
    make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them. "if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
 
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