Prove Magic?

[Taylor Seraphim]

I wouldn't say it's outdated; it simply doesn't reflect specialized usages. No standard dictionary does. It's one of their limitations.

Another limitation is the fact that a dictionary is not an encyclopedia, much less an exhaustively authoritative review of a complex subject. Aspects of this thread are reminding me of some important points raised in this thread over here: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/i-invoke-the-holy-dictionary.185581/

I think a bit of Halsted's words bears repeating here:

"Now, pulling out a dictionary might seem like an innocuous act, but frequently it isn’t. Often the motivation behind the turn to the dictionary is not a desire for greater understanding, but a desire for control. Dictionary worshipers do not want to understand how others use words; rather, they want to control how others use words."
*source*​

A witty saying proves nothing -Voltaire

 

[Erebus]

Like I said, the chances of it being a coincidence would be lower than the chances of magic being real in that instance.

Hmm, perhaps. Even so, extremely unlikely things do happen, I'm not convinced they constitute the sort of proof you seem to be looking for though. For example, Roy Sullivan was struck seven times by lightning, each on a different occasion, and survived them all. The chances of that are infinitesimally slim, so would that indicate that Mr Sullivan was cursed? Perhaps blessed? Maybe just lucky/unlucky.

The point is.

Don't come to my thread to try to change what I am asking about.

The point of that post was that dictionary definitions aren't always that useful. You've decided that magic can only be understood in one way. That's fine, it's entirely up to you if that's what you want to do. This thread is proof enough that it's going to result in clashes though.

 

[EtuMalku]

Here's the bottom line to the OP . . .
"Is there something you or I could do to prove that magic exists to me?"

The definition of magic for this OP is:
Magic: the power of influencing the course of events by using supernatural forces
Supernatural: attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature

What forces are beyond the laws of nature?

The most fundamental level of existence consists of noise from which information self-organizes. The universe emanates from this randomness and turbulence. This is the potential, the chaos, from which order is constructed. The Sorcerer has learned to apply direction to this process, and by doing so has acquired the potential to pull forth the desired result from the myriad possibilities.

"Black Magic is consciously directed alteration of one's environment through obscure natural (Lesser Black Magic) or non-natural (Medial Black Magic) means, or apprehension of the Forms/Principles of the natural/non-natural universe (Greater Black Magic)"

~ Temple of Set​

As can be seen, the idea of the OP Magic being something supernatural is nonsense and therefore does not exist.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Taylor Seraphim Please take your time and read this. I am sure you are asking honest questions; and, it is hard for me to articulate my thoughts in a paragraph for many reasons than one. I will try not to make it a book. RF has a post limit; so, I guess I get the genius of reaching that automatic-warning.

Intro: You said you practiced (20)

Wiccan traditions, ceremonial high magic, folk witchcraft, rune magic, tarot readings, neo-elemental magic, and chaos magick​

My question (will be in ) What did you learn from these practices? When you did folk magic, how did you know it was folk magic if you didn't know that magic is real? If you practiced Wiccan, did it feel fake because you didn't feel the magic? These are just practices.

Once upon a post, you said (1):

Is there something you or I could do to prove that magic exists to me? I would really really love to believe that it does, but I am a skeptic at heart.

We talked one time (cant ref.) and you (going by memory) said you rather go by dictionary definitions. It's a common definition known by all people rather than differing opinions about the same word.

We need to define what magic is first.

1. Before we prove magic exists to you, we must first define what magic is.

You defined magic as: Choas Magick, Witchcraft, Divination, etc. (#5) This is not a definition. This is just practices that use magic; but, we have to define it to understand what these things are. So, that's for another post. Can't fit here.​

I think this is your definition of magic, if I am not mistaken:

I was expecting that through gnosis that my will would be manifested through the interference of a spirit, deity, or simply the manipulation of thoughts within the all consciousness.

We have a foundation.

Reminder: Since you are in a Magic DIR, you will get personal answers not objective.​

2. Now you have to consider which definition do you want prove to you: Yours or magic practitioners? Why? Because we cannot prove something wrong if we do not know what we are proving or have the knowledge to go about it.

a. If it is yours, then a lot of us do not share that definition of magic. So, we cannot answer your question nor prove it wrong. We don't know enough about it to analyze why it would be wrong.

If ours, you will have to accept our answers as valid in and of themselves even if you don't understand them and/or disagree. Once you have done that, the discussion can continue without either side bickering whose definition we will use.

3. So, say we use your definition. What is a gnosis? A mystical feeling?

Let me ask, have you looked into other magic traditions that have nothing to do with paganism? Gnostic traditions (guessing if there are any). Research things about Gnosticism?

Have you looked into Hinduism? They talk about consciousness. Does it have to be magic? Is that the right audience or word you are looking for, for the experience or proof you want given to you?

4. Now, magic, for you, is whats above. A lot of us dont know much if any about that. So, Ima take a shot Other than the resources, have you ever thought that those experiences aren't objective?

Have you thought that the experiences that you are searching for are in and of themselves relative and subjective based on personal experience and not a fixed definition?

5. So, since not If mystical experiences, consciousness, and all that are "magic" and magic is defined as a supernatural (as per dictionary),

What type of evidence are you looking for? (Not experience. Concrete evidence)

In my opinion, there is none. Magic (how you define it) is based on personal experiences and practice. Every person who replied to your post has given you a personal opinion on what he or she knows and/or practices about magic.

So, in the beginning of this post, I said you have to gear your question at a difference audience or accept our answers because if you are looking for a general consensus, we have said many times, there is none.

6. You mentioned witchcraft and divination are magic. They are not. They are methods and tools by which we use to do magic. What's behind the mask?

What's behind the tools and rituals and cards etc?

That leads me to that long post I hoped you read. What is behind the magic?

How do you define gnosis in laymans terms that we will understand and give you an an answer for? Whats the definition in your mind since our definitions aren't what you are asking for?

7. Once you define the definitions within the definitions of magic, then you ask us "okay, I believe magic is gnosis experience. I am a skeptic. Please give me evidence (rather than prove to me) that it is real.

We are on something.

8. Your audience: Is not Magic practitioners. Maybe it is the gnostic DIR?

9. Now you said (28):

No I practiced magic and know that it is wrong.

It has not been able to do anything for me that was not the result of happenstance.

It also fails to be give predictable or reliable results.

My question: I know you already said what results you were expecting. The gnostic experience. Have you ever considered that magic is not just a gnosis experience? It isn't defined within witchcraft, divination, wiccan practice, folk, chaos. In my opinion, that's putting magic in a box.

10. So, to get around this, again, is you have to accept that the definition of magic you use is not the only definition Try other methods that are your preference. Take out traditions. Research gnosis. Really learn about yourself and how you relate to the world.

Do you really need to know about magic? If so, why? What do you think would it benefit you? Will you take the time to search for that knowledge?

Many people here have searched, researched, practiced, and all the above to get where they are today in all ages and walks of life. It's a life long process. It's not "I say the Sinner's Prayer, poof! I'm saved" No It's something that you have to learn and grow into. That is magic.

11. You were talking about magic as something that's outside of happentence.

My question again In addition to the definition you gave above, what type of magic happens outside of the natural order? Is it floating pencils?

Witchcraft, divination, etc are not about "floating pencils"

12. Now you have to give us more definition. Why does it have to be outside of happetence to be magic?

(and I think I reached my limit; let's see).... contin...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Good.. continued @Taylor Seraphim

13. I'ma repeat @Erebus questions:

What do you believe magic should be able to do?

How would you differentiate between a result that was due to magic and a result that was due to happenstance?

Why do you feel magic should be predictable?

He/she makes good points. Take your time; but, these answers will help us understand what you mean by magic based on your experiences etc rather than a dictionary definition. Magic is personal. You had a personal experience. It didn't work. Let's talk about that instead of the trying to find common definitions with a word that even the definition you gave differs but is not common. Join the club. (Not sarcasm)

14. Okay. You said: "Forgive me for assuming that when I say magic, I mean the actual definition of the word and not a jargon one." (69)

Let's take out your definition (gnosis experience), my definition (interconnection with life), etc and go by the dictionary.

Here is the link: Definition of Magic provided by Ms. Merriam, respectively. Look at the full definition.

a. Supernatural power over natural forces.

Okay. Each of us have said that supernatural and natural are interconnected. There is no division. However, that does not seem to work with you.

As a result, How do you define supernatural? What does it mean for it to be over natural forces?

I have no clue what that means. Hence, the other thread I created. However, to prove magic exists, well, we need some more definitions. Since the rest of us disagree with this statement and you want the dictionary definition, without sarcasm, just being direct, it's your turn to give us the definition you'd like us to use and discuss with you.

b. What is a supernatural power? Half of us you are asking don't even believe or use terms like that.

By the way, this is going far away from your OP and your definition basis on the gnosis experience you are looking for.

15. Another good question from @Erebus

Interesting. Firstly, I have to ask why you feel that magic should be beyond the ability of current scientific knowledge to explain?

Does magic have to be separate in your view; a "mystical" experience?

If not, then why do you want to know magic? Why not live your life or find ways that work well with a skeptical mindset? There is nothing wrong with that. I mean, I tried to believe in a creator. Used jesus to do it. Didn't feel right. Admitted to myself, "hey, Carlita, it's just not there!" I got up, took the Eucharist for the last time, and left.

Maybe that is what you need to do? Maybe? (Don't take my word for it; it's an assumption)

16. Although strong, read behind the emotions. He makes a strong point (78):

You're so caught up on definitions rather than the concepts behind them. Why don't you try what you pretended you were here for and listen to those who know what they're talking about? You won't answer questions, you won't accept our explanations, you refuse to acknowledge that words can have many definitions, and you've been over all either hostile or simple non engaging, brushing everything off instead of addressing us. WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM US?!

17. My closing advice is to put the dictionary down and listen to the opinions of practitioners. If you are looking for a fixed definition and wanting someone to prove that definition exist, it probably wont be in a Magic DIR (well, general debates now). Maybe supernatural phenomena, I dont know.

Conclusion.

My heart example is the best I can come up with when explaining some words are not fixed. This is something you have to accept or learn from it and see if it fits who you are and how you want to gain that experience of gnosis.

The scenario of the heart (115)

I type fast; so, I didn't spend too much time over this, don't worry.

I just thought to explain this to you in full and hopefully you understand that some things in life you have to accept while other things you can probe and learn from. In case of religious words like god and magic, I'd have to say it will be hard trying to find someone who believes in the dictionaries definition.

Once you do find that person, ask that person to prove that magic is real. You will have a common ground on the definition rather than be swiped up in personal views of a subjective word you are looking at objectively.

There ya go.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

OOps. Sorry Mods.

 

[1137]

Here's the bottom line to the OP . . .
"Is there something you or I could do to prove that magic exists to me?"

The definition of magic for this OP is:
Magic: the power of influencing the course of events by using supernatural forces
Supernatural: attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature

What forces are beyond the laws of nature?

The most fundamental level of existence consists of noise from which information self-organizes. The universe emanates from this randomness and turbulence. This is the potential, the chaos, from which order is constructed. The Sorcerer has learned to apply direction to this process, and by doing so has acquired the potential to pull forth the desired result from the myriad possibilities.


As can be seen, the idea of the OP Magic being something supernatural is nonsense and therefore does not exist.

The uninitiated could easily see the "non natural" aspects of Setianism as "supernatural" though.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Hmm, perhaps. Even so, extremely unlikely things do happen, I'm not convinced they constitute the sort of proof you seem to be looking for though. For example, Roy Sullivan was struck seven times by lightning, each on a different occasion, and survived them all. The chances of that are infinitesimally slim, so would that indicate that Mr Sullivan was cursed? Perhaps blessed? Maybe just lucky/unlucky.

No because statistically there was bound to be a human that was struck by lightning several times and survived.

The point of that post was that dictionary definitions aren't always that useful. You've decided that magic can only be understood in one way. That's fine, it's entirely up to you if that's what you want to do. This thread is proof enough that it's going to result in clashes though.

Well I made this thread to see if the type of magic as it is defined in the dictionary was true.

So if anyone is not interested in contributing to that there is not really a point.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

@Taylor Seraphim Please take your time and read this. I am sure you are asking honest questions; and, it is hard for me to articulate my thoughts in a paragraph for many reasons than one. I will try not to make it a book. RF has a post limit; so, I guess I get the genius of reaching that automatic-warning.

Okay, shoot.

Intro: You said you practiced (20)

Wiccan traditions, ceremonial high magic, folk witchcraft, rune magic, tarot readings, neo-elemental magic, and chaos magick
My question (will be in ) What did you learn from these practices? When you did folk magic, how did you know it was folk magic if you didn't know that magic is real? If you practiced Wiccan, did it feel fake because you didn't feel the magic? These are just practices.

No, of course ritual can elicit an emotional response. I did not find them to be able to actually do anything outside of that.

Once upon a post, you said (1):
We talked one time (cant ref.) and you (going by memory) said you rather go by dictionary definitions. It's a common definition known by all people rather than differing opinions about the same word.

We need to define what magic is first.

1. Before we prove magic exists to you, we must first define what magic is.

You defined magic as: Choas Magick, Witchcraft, Divination, etc. (#5) This is not a definition. This is just practices that use magic; but, we have to define it to understand what these things are. So, that's for another post. Can't fit here.
I think this is your definition of magic, if I am not mistaken:


We have a foundation.

Depends on who you ask if these are types of magic or not.

Reminder: Since you are in a Magic DIR, you will get personal answers not objective.

We are no longer in the magic DIR.

Also that is not excuse as to why the answer should be subjective, unless you are saying that magic has no objective effect or value.

2. Now you have to consider which definition do you want prove to you: Yours or magic practitioners? Why? Because we cannot prove something wrong if we do not know what we are proving or have the knowledge to go about it.

a. If it is yours, then a lot of us do not share that definition of magic. So, we cannot answer your question nor prove it wrong. We don't know enough about it to analyze why it would be wrong.

If ours, you will have to accept our answers as valid in and of themselves even if you don't understand them and/or disagree. Once you have done that, the discussion can continue without either side bickering whose definition we will use.

Seeming as I want a specific definition of magic to be prove, lets go with mine.

Really? Because I can prove or disprove something using a definition I do not typically accept for that word all the time.

3. So, say we use your definition. What is a gnosis? A mystical feeling?

Ok here it is from the Wikipedia article of chaos magick.


A concept introduced by Peter Carroll is the gnostic state, also referred to as gnosis. This is defined as an altered state of consciousness that in his magic theory is necessary for working most forms of magic.[8] This is a departure from older concepts which described energies, spirits or symbolic acts as the source of magical powers. The concept has an ancestor in the Buddhist concept of Samadhi, made popular in western occultism by Aleister Crowley and further explored by Austin Osman Spare.

The gnostic state is achieved when a person's mind is focused on only one point, thought, or goal and all other thoughts are thrust out. Practitioners of chaos magic each develop their own ways of reaching this state. All such methods hinge on the belief that a simple thought or direction experienced during the gnostic state and then forgotten quickly afterwards bypasses the "psychic censor" (faculties averse to the magical manipulation of reality) and is sent to the subconscious, rather than the conscious mind, where it can be enacted through means unknown to the conscious mind. Three main types of gnosis are described:[3]

• Inhibitory gnosis is a form of deep meditation into a trance state of mind. This type of gnosis uses slow and regular breathing techniques, absent thought processes, progressive muscle relaxation, self-induction and self-hypnosis techniques. Means employed may also include fasting, sleeplessness, sensory deprivation and hypnotic or trance-inducing drugs.
• Excitatory gnosis describes a mindlessness reached through intense arousal. It is aimed to be reached through sexual excitation, intense emotions, flagellation, dance, drumming, chanting, sensory overload, hyperventilation and the use of disinhibitory or hallucinogenic drugs.
• Indifferent vacuity was described by Phil Hine and Jan Fries as a third method. Here the intended spell is cast parenthetically, so it does not raise much thought to suppress.[12]

According to this belief, specific rituals, meditations and other elements of more traditional forms of magic are not to be understood as valuable by themselves, but only as gnosis-inducing techniques.

Let me ask, have you looked into other magic traditions that have nothing to do with paganism? Gnostic traditions (guessing if there are any). Research things about Gnosticism?

Yeah I already mentioned Chaos Magick.

Gnosticism means something different than the idea of the gnostic state.

Have you looked into Hinduism? They talk about consciousness. Does it have to be magic? Is that the right audience or word you are looking for, for the experience or proof you want given to you?

Yeah I have, I found it lacking.

Have you thought that the experiences that you are searching for are in and of themselves relative and subjective based on personal experience and not a fixed definition?

5. So, since not If mystical experiences, consciousness, and all that are "magic" and magic is defined as a supernatural (as per dictionary),

No, if a bunch of humans do a ritual of magic and there is no similarities to the experience then the ritual is without value.

Consciousness is not magical.

What type of evidence are you looking for? (Not experience. Concrete evidence)

Evidence that something can be made change through a supernatural means.

In my opinion, there is none. Magic (how you define it) is based on personal experiences and practice. Every person who replied to your post has given you a personal opinion on what he or she knows and/or practices about magic.

So, in the beginning of this post, I said you have to gear your question at a difference audience or accept our answers because if you are looking for a general consensus, we have said many times, there is none.

You know that makes it seem likely that you all make it up.

6. You mentioned witchcraft and divination are magic. They are not. They are methods and tools by which we use to do magic. What's behind the mask?

What's behind the tools and rituals and cards etc?

Depends on who you ask., to many people they are.

Most would claim it is symbolism or a form of gnosis.

That leads me to that long post I hoped you read. What is behind the magic?

How do you define gnosis in laymans terms that we will understand and give you an an answer for? Whats the definition in your mind since our definitions aren't what you are asking for?

Gnosis: Making yourself of one mind.

7. Once you define the definitions within the definitions of magic, then you ask us "okay, I believe magic is gnosis experience. I am a skeptic. Please give me evidence (rather than prove to me) that it is real.

We are on something.

I do not believe that magic is a gnosis experience.

I am saying that personal gnosis was a supposed way of doing magic that I tried.

8. Your audience: Is not Magic practitioners. Maybe it is the gnostic DIR?

No it is not.

Look im ending my responses right here because you need to read what I showed gnosis is and how it is simply an example of what I have tried before you waste your time making a long post based on a false assumption.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Misreading a post and making a false assumption out of ignorance of assuming I haven't read your post are two different things. I had to separate your posts to understand what you were saying. Without that, my brain cannot put together the pieces of what you are trying to ask us to give you. I think I can explain it, but its at the tip of my tongue.

Let me know if you don't want an answer from me. Online is stupid sometimes. Generosity gets flown out the window.

Generosity is not a waste of my time.

Okay, shoot.



No, of course ritual can elicit an emotional response. I did not find them to be able to actually do anything outside of that.



Depends on who you ask if these are types of magic or not.



We are no longer in the magic DIR.

Also that is not excuse as to why the answer should be subjective, unless you are saying that magic has no objective effect or value.



Seeming as I want a specific definition of magic to be prove, lets go with mine.

Really? Because I can prove or disprove something using a definition I do not typically accept for that word all the time.



Ok here it is from the Wikipedia article of chaos magick.


A concept introduced by Peter Carroll is the gnostic state, also referred to as gnosis. This is defined as an altered state of consciousness that in his magic theory is necessary for working most forms of magic.[8] This is a departure from older concepts which described energies, spirits or symbolic acts as the source of magical powers. The concept has an ancestor in the Buddhist concept of Samadhi, made popular in western occultism by Aleister Crowley and further explored by Austin Osman Spare.

The gnostic state is achieved when a person's mind is focused on only one point, thought, or goal and all other thoughts are thrust out. Practitioners of chaos magic each develop their own ways of reaching this state. All such methods hinge on the belief that a simple thought or direction experienced during the gnostic state and then forgotten quickly afterwards bypasses the "psychic censor" (faculties averse to the magical manipulation of reality) and is sent to the subconscious, rather than the conscious mind, where it can be enacted through means unknown to the conscious mind. Three main types of gnosis are described:[3]

• Inhibitory gnosis is a form of deep meditation into a trance state of mind. This type of gnosis uses slow and regular breathing techniques, absent thought processes, progressive muscle relaxation, self-induction and self-hypnosis techniques. Means employed may also include fasting, sleeplessness, sensory deprivation and hypnotic or trance-inducing drugs.
• Excitatory gnosis describes a mindlessness reached through intense arousal. It is aimed to be reached through sexual excitation, intense emotions, flagellation, dance, drumming, chanting, sensory overload, hyperventilation and the use of disinhibitory or hallucinogenic drugs.
• Indifferent vacuity was described by Phil Hine and Jan Fries as a third method. Here the intended spell is cast parenthetically, so it does not raise much thought to suppress.[12]

According to this belief, specific rituals, meditations and other elements of more traditional forms of magic are not to be understood as valuable by themselves, but only as gnosis-inducing techniques.



Yeah I already mentioned Chaos Magick.

Gnosticism means something different than the idea of the gnostic state.



Yeah I have, I found it lacking.



No, if a bunch of humans do a ritual of magic and there is no similarities to the experience then the ritual is without value.

Consciousness is not magical.



Evidence that something can be made change through a supernatural means.



You know that makes it seem likely that you all make it up.



Depends on who you ask., to many people they are.

Most would claim it is symbolism or a form of gnosis.



Gnosis: Making yourself of one mind.



I do not believe that magic is a gnosis experience.

I am saying that personal gnosis was a supposed way of doing magic that I tried.



No it is not.

Look im ending my responses right here because you need to read what I showed gnosis is and how it is simply an example of what I have tried before you waste your time making a long post based on a false assumption.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Misreading a post and making a false assumption out of ignorance of assuming I haven't read your post are two different things. I had to separate your posts to understand what you were saying. Without that, my brain cannot put together the pieces of what you are trying to ask us to give you. I think I can explain it, but its at the tip of my tongue.

Let me know if you don't want an answer from me. Online is stupid sometimes. Generosity gets flown out the window.

When did I say I do not want an answer from you?

To the best of my knowledge I have only asked that of two people before on this forum, and you are not one of them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When did I say I do not want an answer from you?

To the best of my knowledge I have only asked that of two people before on this forum, and you are not one of them.

When you asked in the Magic DIR, I assume you wanted answers from the people within it. I don't know the conversation you had with Quin and the other folks; but, if you wanted an answer to your question from people who actually practice magic, that would help (well, I would at least think) you understand judge if magic is real for yourself. I mean, the whole thread posters, not just myself, where trying to explain it to you.

It was on my mind for a good while today with a couple of other people on RF that I have yet to answer their question. When it pops up, I usually give them an answer even though, as the nature of RF, they didn't ask me directly.

Anyway, I read what gnosis means. I understand what you are asking. Here are the points you made. I think you get it, its just hard to agree with it (or let yourself be proven by what we say about magic is real). That's okay. Just don't add saracsm to the conversation. I type fast, so it wasn't a big deal in that area. It was more I was trying to help you understand the questions you had. I asked them myself at one time and it gets terribly fustrating hearing people say "it depends", not everyone is the same, there are different types its subjective, you have to experience it to know.

I try to explain it. Not many people stick around and actively read what I say without thinking of a reply before they finish the context of my post even when I separate the points and highlight my thesis.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

When you asked in the Magic DIR, I assume you wanted answers from the people within it. I don't know the conversation you had with Quin and the other folks; but, if you wanted an answer to your question from people who actually practice magic, that would help (well, I would at least think) you understand judge if magic is real for yourself. I mean, the whole thread posters, not just myself, where trying to explain it to you.

It was on my mind for a good while today with a couple of other people on RF that I have yet to answer their question. When it pops up, I usually give them an answer even though, as the nature of RF, they didn't ask me directly.

Anyway, I read what gnosis means. I understand what you are asking. Here are the points you made. I think you get it, its just hard to agree with it (or let yourself be proven by what we say about magic is real). That's okay. Just don't add saracsm to the conversation. I type fast, so it wasn't a big deal in that area. It was more I was trying to help you understand the questions you had. I asked them myself at one time and it gets terribly fustrating hearing people say "it depends", not everyone is the same, there are different types its subjective, you have to experience it to know.

I try to explain it. Not many people stick around and actively read what I say without thinking of a reply before they finish the context of my post even when I separate the points and highlight my thesis.

I do still want answers from magacians and such.

But when someone says that magic is real because of internet, I find that really frustrating.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do still want answers from magacians and such.

But when someone says that magic is real because of internet, I find that really frustrating.

It is frustrating, I agree. I never used the word magic for my practice until I came on RF. Then I had to define what in the world they meant in addition to the web sites I read about it. Then decipher the mess that's on the web sites from my upbringing, experience, and practice of it.

I don't have a commonly accepted definition of magic even in the Pagan community. I'm a "Jehovah's Witness to a mainstream christian community" to compare it.

All I know is based on previous conversations, you wanted a dictionary definitions. I don't know what audience you should target for your question, but trying to prove magic from the dictionary perspective is real to you is only illogical because majority of us said we don't go by the dictionary to define terms like that.

As a result, we'd have to know what to you is witchcraft, chaos magick, and divination (among others you mentioned) because ours do not even match among ourselves. And to some of us, we don't define those as magic but practices involving magic.


--
In other words, since we

1 Don't use the dictionary definition
2. Can't find a common definition of magic among ourselves

The only way to have a decent conversation to answer your question is finding a common definition we can all agree on. Since this is something you'd like to know, the definition would have to come from you.

I teach and have advocacy groups, etc. I like helping people. I've always wanted to be a spiritual adviser; but, I live in a christian community and I need a B.A. to even go into that field like at hospitals and such.

Online frustrates he mess out of me because I am misinterpreted, misread, told I did X when I did Y, and all the other mess that's on the internet I should take a break from. Well, actually, I should be on my break now.

Just trying to help. Sorry.

 

[1137]

Misreading a post and making a false assumption out of ignorance of assuming I haven't read your post are two different things. I had to separate your posts to understand what you were saying. Without that, my brain cannot put together the pieces of what you are trying to ask us to give you. I think I can explain it, but its at the tip of my tongue.

Let me know if you don't want an answer from me. Online is stupid sometimes. Generosity gets flown out the window.

Generosity is not a waste of my time.

There comes a point where you have to respect yourself.

 

[1137]

I do still want answers from magacians and such.

But when someone says that magic is real because of internet, I find that really frustrating.

Then explain how the internet would arise naturally in the wild.

I already told you, not one single person here would accept you definition of magic. So why are you still responding?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Then explain how the internet would arise naturally in the wild.

I already told you, not one single person here would accept you definition of magic. So why are you still responding?

Not occur without human input =/= magic.

Because it is my damn thread.

The purpose of the thread is to try to prove me to me that a specific definition of magic is real.

The real question is why you are still responding.

 

[1137]

Not occur without human input =/= magic.

Because it is my damn thread.

The purpose of the thread is to try to prove me to me that a specific definition of magic is real.

The real question is why you are still responding.

Because I'm a teacher and social worker who hates ignorance and inappropriate, rude behavior. I already told you what you wanted to here, and many others have as well. There is no supernatual magic. If you refuse to update your definition or listen to anybody on the topic you're more than welcome too, but as far as your OP goes the questions is absolutely resolved.

 

[1137]

Also, if something can't arise from nature, how is it natural? Seems pretty damn simple.

 

[Acim]

So you are not sure that is works, and you do not care if it does.

I'm not sure if it works for others based on my invocation and don't care much if it does. I used to care more about it in this way, but find it to be a bit shallow in understanding it through filter of 'magic.'

You only do it because it makes you feel better and in control.

I do it because when I don't, I will notice how it perpetuates problems/errors in my observations (of all things) and in my relationships. I also do it, because the return of Love to awareness far exceeds every other experience I've ever encountered, especially when Love is the experience (and not just an intellectual understanding). And by Love I mean unconditional love. When it is exclusive relationship type love (to a person or thing), I don't readily call that love, but I recognize that as the normal use of love.

Back to what I was stating before you asked for specifics on how I invoke magic.... I honestly see thoughts as applied to anything physical as being invocation of magic. Thus, I do see 'scientific method' as a good example. Not found in physical nature, does appear to have mysterious understandings associated with physical existence, and/or does fundamentally rest on faith. Arguably is a supernatural force at work because nature (apart from humanity) is not relying on our understandings to function, nor seemingly concerned with our conceptualizations of 'laws of nature.' That the scientific method may not be an actual practice (ritual) of current scientists, while the popular perception is that it distinguishes science from other endeavors, just adds to the mystery. That we teach the scientific method to our offspring to indoctrinate them into the 'world of science' just adds to the mystery aspect of it. And that it actually comes down to multiple methods that aren't necessarily shared openly makes it almost cult like in the way in which the magic works within society. It is clearly 'working' and clearly a mystery in how it is working.