• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Prove that humans aren't blind to God's existence

sandandfoam

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Willamena said:
Your senses are all you have to rely on --mind is a composite of sensory, remembered (imaged) and imagined (extrapolated or predictive) data.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that there is not more than sensory information to the mind, I'm thinking particularly of a genetic component.
I'm also not sure if there is a clear distinction between memory and imagination.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
And toms, it results in an odd theology as well. God, omnipotent and all, created people in such a way that they would not be able to sense His existence? Seems kind of cussed to me.
 
tomspug

tomspug

Absorbant
Autodidact said:
And toms, it results in an odd theology as well. God, omnipotent and all, created people in such a way that they would not be able to sense His existence? Seems kind of cussed to me.
Click to expand...
Who says they aren't able to sense his existence? How about God gave us the freedom to run away from him or not? That sounds like a parent, to me.

And yes, I am implying that those who do not see God are the ones who are willfully avoiding him (and stubborn ones willfully avoid him, demanding that he meet them on THEIR terms).
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
stephenw said:
I'm not sure that there is not more than sensory information to the mind, I'm thinking particularly of a genetic component.
I'm also not sure if there is a clear distinction between memory and imagination.
Click to expand...
How do we know of "the genetic component"? We study it in laboratories via our senses.

For me, at least, there is a very slim line between memory and imagination. Still, I make a distinction.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
tomspug said:
Who says they aren't able to sense his existence?
Click to expand...
1. I thought that was the entire premise of your post? 2. Well, He certainly seems to have created me that way, cuz I ain't sensed nothin'.

And yes, I am implying that those who do not see God are the ones who are willfully avoiding him (and stubborn ones willfully avoid him, demanding that he meet them on THEIR terms).
Click to expand...
Well, you can always ignore all the evidence that contradicts your world view by calling other people liars. Whatever works for you. I guess there's really no point in us talking then, since you think I'm a liar?

btw, did you notice that you are now making an argument the exact opposite of your OP?
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
tomspug said:
Who says they aren't able to sense his existence?
Click to expand...

Autodidact said:
2. Well, He certainly seems to have created me that way, cuz I ain't sensed nothin'.
Click to expand...
If I may ask, what techniques have you used? Self-inducing mystical experience is a learned skill, and a tricky one at that. No one technique works for everyone. Also, were you truly open to the possibility? I know it sounds like a cop-out, but I'm not saying that to sense God you have to believe first. I AM saying that you can't self-induce if you don't believe you can. The brain is funny like that.

EDIT: Conversely, many mystics agree that if you want it TOO much, it won't happen either. The desire itself is too much of a distraction.
 
Last edited:
tomspug

tomspug

Absorbant
If I implied that I believe that humans are completely blind to God's existence, then my mistake.

The idea is that God is the hero of the story, giving us the ability to see him and understand him, in spite of the fact that "sin" corrupts us, separates us from God naturally. But if we refuse these gifts, provided so eloquently and simply in the Bible, then what hope can we have of seeing God except through our own vain efforts, (i.e. an atheist who claims never to have seen God). I am in no way calling atheists liars. I'm calling them stubborn and unwilling to explore Christianity as it really is, choosing instead to reject it on a shallow, hypothetical level.
 
M

mohammed_beiruti

Active Member
little_monkey said:
No one has told me that, but more than 90% of the world population end up believing the same as their parents. A meager 10% will change their religious belief in their lifetime from what they were told since infancy. Perhaps, you belong to that 10%, but it is not what the vast majority experiences.

And I obey no one.
Click to expand...

you have a logical explaination.

By the way , our Prophets in Islam encountered Such a problem While Trying to change flase believes of pagans.

in Qura'an Allah mentioned the main reason for thier insisting of never changing thier belives .

ch.2
170. When it is said to them: "Follow what God hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

ch5
104. When it is said to them: "Come to what God hath revealed; come to the Apostle": They say: "Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following." what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?

ch.7
70. They said: "Comest thou to us, that we may worship God alone, and give up the cult of our fathers? bring us what thou threatenest us with, if so be that thou tellest the truth!"

ch.11
62. They said: "O Salih! thou hast been of us! a centre of our hopes hitherto! dost thou (now) forbid us the worship of what our fathers worshipped? But we are really in suspicious (disquieting) doubt as to that to which thou invitest us."
87. They said: "O Shu'aib! Does thy (religion of) prayer command thee that we leave off the worship which our fathers practised, or that we leave off doing what we like with our property? truly, thou art the one that forbeareth with faults and is right- minded!"


10. Their apostles said: "Is there a doubt about Allah, The Creator of the heavens and the earth? It is He Who invites you, in order that He may forgive you your sins and give you respite for a term appointed!" They said: "Ah! ye are no more than human, like ourselves! Ye wish to turn us away from the (gods) our fathers used to worship: then bring us some clear authority."


ch.21
51. We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.
52. Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"
53. They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."
He said, "Indeed ye have been in manifest error--ye and your fathers."

ch.26
71. Behold, he said to his father and his people: "What worship ye?"
72. They said: "We worship idols, and we remain constantly in attendance on them."
73. He said: "Do they listen to you when ye call (on them), or do you good or harm?"
74. They said: "Nay, but we found our fathers doing thus (what we do)."

ch.31
21. When they are told to follow the (Revelation) that Allah has sent down, they say: "Nay, we shall follow the ways that we found our fathers (following). "What! even if it is Satan beckoning them to the Penalty of the (Blazing) Fire?


ch.43
22. Nay! they say: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps."
23. Just in the same way, whenever We sent a Warner before thee to any people, the wealthy ones among them said: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we will certainly follow in their footsteps."

So no, this is no trifle, just hard facts
Click to expand...

the suspicion is like a balance has two pans true and flase,(something we don't belive it, neither we deny it ), but when we find the pan of the thruth has inclined, we will follow the truth.

the most important thing is not to deny something without studying it from all it's dimentions and to have a enough knowledge about it.

And I obey no one
Click to expand...

at least you obey your desires, don't you?
 
Last edited:
little_monkey

little_monkey

atheist
mohammed_beiruti said:
you have a logical explaination.

By the way , our Prophets in Islam encountered Such a problem While Trying to change flase believes of pagans.

in Qura'an Allah mentioned the main reason for thier insisting of never changing thier belives .

ch.2
170. When it is said to them: "Follow what God hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

ch5
104. When it is said to them: "Come to what God hath revealed; come to the Apostle": They say: "Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following." what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?

ch.7
70. They said: "Comest thou to us, that we may worship God alone, and give up the cult of our fathers? bring us what thou threatenest us with, if so be that thou tellest the truth!"

ch.11
62. They said: "O Salih! thou hast been of us! a centre of our hopes hitherto! dost thou (now) forbid us the worship of what our fathers worshipped? But we are really in suspicious (disquieting) doubt as to that to which thou invitest us."
87. They said: "O Shu'aib! Does thy (religion of) prayer command thee that we leave off the worship which our fathers practised, or that we leave off doing what we like with our property? truly, thou art the one that forbeareth with faults and is right- minded!"


10. Their apostles said: "Is there a doubt about Allah, The Creator of the heavens and the earth? It is He Who invites you, in order that He may forgive you your sins and give you respite for a term appointed!" They said: "Ah! ye are no more than human, like ourselves! Ye wish to turn us away from the (gods) our fathers used to worship: then bring us some clear authority."


ch.21
51. We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.
52. Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"
53. They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."
He said, "Indeed ye have been in manifest error--ye and your fathers."

ch.26
71. Behold, he said to his father and his people: "What worship ye?"
72. They said: "We worship idols, and we remain constantly in attendance on them."
73. He said: "Do they listen to you when ye call (on them), or do you good or harm?"
74. They said: "Nay, but we found our fathers doing thus (what we do)."

ch.31
21. When they are told to follow the (Revelation) that Allah has sent down, they say: "Nay, we shall follow the ways that we found our fathers (following). "What! even if it is Satan beckoning them to the Penalty of the (Blazing) Fire?


ch.43
22. Nay! they say: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps."
23. Just in the same way, whenever We sent a Warner before thee to any people, the wealthy ones among them said: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we will certainly follow in their footsteps."
Click to expand...

With these quotes, you are confirming that you have been brainwashed to accept these without questions. What a shame that you're still unaware of it.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
tomspug said:
Doesn't it seem odd to reject something of which you know nothing about?
Click to expand...
Who could grow up in the U.S. today and know nothing of Christianity? I have never been Christian, and know more about Christianity than any other religion, more than many Christians I have met.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top