Proving the existence of Allah (swt) to an atheist

[Sententia]

Now I am not a scholar of Koran. (or the Qur'an if you prefer) But have read quite a bit about it. (Its been mostly bad but I didn't write the criticism )

Dawkin's in God Delusion talks about the Koran a few times.

Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity. 'By far the majority of Muslims today live their lives without recourse to violence, for the Koran is like a pick-and-mix selection. If you want peace, you can find peaceable verses. If you want war, you can find bellicose verses.' Sookhdeo goes on to explain how Islamic scholars, in order to cope with the many contradictions that they found in the Qur'an, developed the principle of abrogation, whereby later texts trump earlier ones.

Hmm Patrick Sookhdeo... What does he think? Based on just the titles of his many speeches and books on Islam and the Koran over many years I'm going to wager he does not consider the book perfect by any means.

 

[Kerr]

Likewise You have also given me the intellectual high ground by saying you are stoopid

Unless that is a part of my plan .

 

[Bismillah]

One, I edited my post explaining I may have misunderstood (have not slept well ).

And about the animals, it does not mean they have a choice.

Sleep? Sleep is for slackers.

Well if it is not by choice then it is genetic? It if is genetic then it would indicate that these animals that commit homosexual acts are homosexual. They do not care for the opposite sex. Yet, I am willing to bet that all those animals are normal heterosexual animals that may or may not engage in homosexual practices (similar to the fact that prisoners also switch back and forth between homo and heterosexuality). Then if they do in fact switch from heterosexuality to homosexuality then is it not choice? If it was a gene wouldn't it have died out? The basic purpose of every animal is to ensure its genes are passed on. Homosexuality should have died out then no?

 

[MSizer]

Sleep? Sleep is for slackers.

Well if it is not by choice then it is genetic? It if is genetic then it would indicate that these animals that commit homosexual acts are homosexual. They do not care for the opposite sex. Yet, I am willing to bet that all those animals are normal heterosexual animals that may or may not engage in homosexual practices (similar to the fact that prisoners also switch back and forth between homo and heterosexuality). Then if they do in fact switch from heterosexuality to homosexuality then is it not choice? If it was a gene wouldn't it have died out? The basic purpose of every animal is to ensure its genes are passed on. Homosexuality should have died out then no?

First of all, even if homosexuality is not valuable to an individual, it is very possible that it is an epistatic trait.

Secondly, you're failing to consider psychological factors which may exist.

 

[Bismillah]

Hmm Patrick Sookhdeo... What does he think? Based on just the titles of his many speeches and books on Islam and the Koran over many years I'm going to wager he does not consider the book perfect by any means.

What do I think of Patrick? I don't know the guy or have read his work and if you are expecting me to download his lectures online then you are mistaken. I have seen and am not impressed by the criticisms of Islam as a religion of terror etc. etc. The majority of terrorists and terrorism plots are politically motivated, not religiously motivated. If you want to point something out from the religion itself go ahead. But do it in the other thread. I am tired of topics mixing and changing, I will only respond to comments relating to homosexuality in this thread.

 

[Kerr]

Well if it is not by choice then it is genetic? It if is genetic then it would indicate that these animals that commit homosexual acts are homosexual. They do not care for the opposite sex. Yet, I am willing to bet that all those animals are normal heterosexual animals that may or may not engage in homosexual practices (similar to the fact that prisoners also switch back and forth between homo and heterosexuality). Then if they do in fact switch from heterosexuality to homosexuality then is it not choice? If it was a gene wouldn't it have died out? The basic purpose of every animal is to ensure its genes are passed on. Homosexuality should have died out then no?

Or maybe they are bisexual... seriously, though, we generaiize. Animals are different. Some are more or less hetro-bi-homo. It depends. Think I heard that chimps are all bisexual, for example (but do not take my word for that).

And no, homosexuals would not have died out because that is not the way inheritance work and because there probably exist a reason for it to exist.

 

[Commoner]

Care to elaborate?

Hmmm, I don't know if I should, it's so perfect the way it is.

I don't know, I haven't seen any Qur'an verses to indicate so...

Well, as far as I know about the story, every being on earth was offered free will, but they all refused - all but us. I think this is what the verse means:

[We did indeed offer the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof: But Man undertook it; He was indeed unjust and foolish.] (Al-Ahzab 33:72)

But I'm really far from being an expert. By googling the issue it does seem that the mainstream view of Islam is that animals do not have free will.

 

[Kerr]

What I am curious about, when discussing homosexuality and hetrosexuality... what about people who are not exclusivly male or female? How does this apply to them?

 

[Bismillah]

First of all, even if homosexuality is not valuable to an individual, it is very possible that it is an epistatic trait.

Secondly, you're failing to consider psychological factors which may exist.

It may be an epistatic trait. Or it may be a curse by the Pagan Gods to condemn those who are unworthy. The thing linking both those theories together is the lack of proof.

Failing to consider psychology? My last comment was hypothetical. I have been arguing that homosexuality, while strictly not a choice, is the result of external stimulus that alter the psyche of a person in regards to sexual preferences.

 

[Bismillah]

Or maybe they are bisexual... seriously, though, we generaiize. Animals are different. Some are more or less hetro-bi-homo. It depends. Think I heard that chimps are all bisexual, for example (but do not take my word for that).

Don't bisexuals have a choice? Can't they pick which sex to have intercourse with? So, are bisexuals, perhaps, bisexuals for the pleasure involved with having sex with both genders? Then that would fit with animals no? Animals, while heterosexual in the respect that they endeavor to pass their traits on, also are known to engage in strictly pleasurable activities. I.e dogs humping an owners leg.

Hmmm, I don't know if I should, it's so perfect the way it is.

I still have no idea what you are talking about.

Well, as far as I know about the story, every being on earth was offered free will, but they all refused - all but us. I think this is what the verse means:

[We did indeed offer the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof: But Man undertook it; He was indeed unjust and foolish.] (Al-Ahzab 33:72)

Ah, but the context of free will is taken to mean the freedoms that Human's enjoy no? Animals, while not as privileged as humans, still have some understanding of the world and their place in it.

 

[Kerr]

And no, homosexuals would not have died out because that is not the way inheritance work and because there probably exist a reason for it to exist.

Maybe I should elaborate on the bolded part. Will return with something more in detail what I meant.

 

[Commoner]

It may be an epistatic trait. Or it may be a curse by the Pagan Gods to condemn those who are unworthy. The thing linking both those theories together is the lack of proof.

Failing to consider psychology? My last comment was hypothetical. I have been arguing that homosexuality, while strictly not a choice, is the result of external stimulus that alter the psyche of a person in regards to sexual preferences.

Well, most of our traits are a combination of both genetics and environment. So I would find it hard to rule out that environment in no way shapes our sexual preferences. But this is all just conjecture on my part.

 

[Kerr]

Don't bisexuals have a choice? Can't they pick which sex to have intercourse with? So, are bisexuals, perhaps, bisexuals for the pleasure involved with having sex with both genders? Then that would fit with animals no? Animals, while heterosexual in the respect that they endeavor to pass their traits on, also are known to engage in strictly pleasurable activities. I.e dogs humping an owners leg.

Bisexuality means you are attracted to both genders, so you would have more of a choice there, yes.

while heterosexual in the respect that they endeavor to pass their traits on

Must just point out that this is not the definition of hetrosexuality.

 

[Bismillah]

So I would find it hard to rule out that environment in no way shapes our sexual preferences. But this is all just conjecture on my part.

Umm, I've been arguing the opposite of that

 

[Bismillah]

Bisexuality means you are attracted to both genders, so you would have more of a choice there, yes.

Success!

 

[MSizer]

Success!

A choice in actions, more individuals with whom you would like to participate in sexual acts, but still no choice in preference.

 

[Commoner]

Don't bisexuals have a choice? Can't they pick which sex to have intercourse with? So, are bisexuals, perhaps, bisexuals for the pleasure involved with having sex with both genders? Then that would fit with animals no? Animals, while heterosexual in the respect that they endeavor to pass their traits on, also are known to engage in strictly pleasurable activities. I.e dogs humping an owners leg.

We always have a choice who to have sex with. The question is, can we choose who we are attracted to.

I still have no idea what you are talking about.

His comment was sarcastic. You basically agreed that the only way to prove Allah was by accepting unfouded assumptions and using flawed logic. :areyoucra

Ah, but the context of free will is taken to mean the freedoms that Human's enjoy no? Animals, while not as privileged as humans, still have some understanding of the world and their place in it.

Well, again, I'm no expert on the Qur'an - but aren't animals not capable of sin, in other words, they cannot stray from the natural disposition, right?

 

[Sententia]

What do I think of Patrick? I don't know the guy or have read his work and if you are expecting me to download his lectures online then you are mistaken. I have seen and am not impressed by the criticisms of Islam as a religion of terror etc. etc. The majority of terrorists and terrorism plots are politically motivated, not religiously motivated. If you want to point something out from the religion itself go ahead. But do it in the other thread. I am tired of topics mixing and changing, I will only respond to comments relating to homosexuality in this thread.

The title of this thread is "Proving the existence of Allah (swt) to an atheist". Pick and choose what you wish to speak of mate. You asked for contradictions and I was pointing out that Patrick Sookhdeo speaks on the subject of Contradictions. (Hence the quote, here again, abridged, and bolded.)

Islamic scholars, in order to cope with the many contradictions that they found in the Qur'an, developed the principle of abrogation, whereby later texts trump earlier ones.

Claiming there are no contradictions in the Koran is blatantly false.

 

[Commoner]

Umm, I've been arguing the opposite of that

Yes, I was agreeing.

 

[Bismillah]

A choice in actions, more individuals with whom you would like to participate in sexual acts, but still no choice in preference.

Sir, I am not saying that homosexuality is strictly choice. I have said it multiple times that it is influenced by environmental factors such as the impressionable early childhood stage.