Proving the existence of Allah (swt) to an atheist

[Bismillah]

Yes

Prove it.

Depends on the animal. Some primates engage in bisexual behavior.

For pleasure, it is inherent knowledge that the Primate cannot pass on his genes through homosexual behavior. It is an animal fulfilling its sexual impulses.

And yet we have cases of gay penguins in New York as well as Germany who are comitted to each other as well as hatching and raising a chick that was rejected by its parents....All that and they live at the zoo in a community of other penguins (some even female) and yet they remain in a relationship.

Perhaps there is no need to mate? They have a child and the Penguins obviously fulfill each other's desires.

And yet...it hasn't.....

You need to take things into context. I said homosexuality would have died out in Animals if it was genetic. It hasn't died out, so it's not genetic. It is a byproduct of sexual gratification.

Furthermore, I already have said whether animals are born homosexual or not, it is inconsequential.

 

[Commoner]

Allah does not test someone in this way.

every reward and every misfortune is a test in islam. if one is thankfull for the rewards then Allah knows best what he does. if one hates Allah for the misfortunes then Allah does not torture and kill you for doing so. there are plenty of non muslims even who associate partners to him (associating partners to Allah is the biggest sin there is). yet they are free to enjoy life and anything they do is what they will get judged upon. Allah is merciful and forgiving, he forgives a serveant who turns to him in repentance and who asks for forgiveness.

so how is what you've said in alignemt to what i've said?

Because unlike your lovely story - god controls your misfortunes. There is no need for any tests to prove anything to anyone. Your god is a mobster breaking your legs until you pay him for protection - protection from himself. Just pay him and he'll stop, how wonderful he is!

 

[Gharib]

(To be honest, I am not saying I agree or disagree with the kind of God you speak of above... I am way too tired to do that at the moment.)

have you heard of the concept of resting?

 

[Gharib]

Because unlike your lovely story - god controls your misfortunes. There is no need for any tests to prove anything to anyone. Your god is a mobster breaking your legs until you pay him for protection - protection from himself. Just pay him and he'll stop, how wonderful he is!

i did tell you before to go on, so please keep going.

 

[Kerr]

have you heard of the concept of resting?

What is that? A movie?

 

[Commoner]

i did tell you before to go on, so please keep going.

Hey, if you're happy with your story, no problem. I just don't see how you could compartmentalize parts of it to such a degree that it would seem logical to you as a whole.

 

[Gharib]

Hey, if you're happy with your story, no problem. I just don't see how you could compartmentalize parts of it to such a degree that it would seem logical to you as a whole.

it is logical. thats how it is in islam. just cos you don't like it makes no difference. so i suggest you stop saying false things about islam. if you want to learn then please ask. if you don't then don't bother saying things you know are not right.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sir, I am not saying that homosexuality is strictly choice...................it is influenced by environmental factors such as the impressionable early childhood stage.

This is incorrect. We know of Lesbian as well as gay couples who have raised children and the child doesn't grow to become a lesbian or homosexual.....one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

 

[Commoner]

it is logical. thats how it is in islam. just cos you don't like it makes no difference. so i suggest you stop saying false things about islam. if you want to learn then please ask. if you don't then don't bother saying things you know are not right.

It has nothing to do with me not liking it. Your god's character is simply not merciful and loving. I'm not saying anything about Islam - all I'm doing is taking what you tell me and commenting on it. How that is or isn't what Islam is all about is more your problem than mine. My problem is with the interpretation that people being born with disabilities or defects are being "tested" on the strenght of their devotion by an all-powerful, omniscient, merciful, loving god. That's just illogical.

 

[Bismillah]

They must have done something, why else would you slap your children - you said it yourself

Yes, why would God punish people unjustly?

Look, it's either a punishemt or a trial. If they've done something to deserve to get slapped, it's a punishment. If not - well, then god is simply slapping his children to prove their devotion - something you yourself find inappropriate.

Allah rewards those who suffer in this world far beyond what he rewards those who are blessed. Even those who are healthy are tested. If I have a functioning tongue do I use it to use profanity or read the verses of the Qur'an? If a person is born without a leg is he not rewarded for his patience and daily struggles?

This world matters to me. If you slap me without a good reason and then give me a cookie, you can be damn sure you're gonna have trouble. I just can't wrap my head around this - how is this a merciful, loving character to you?

A cookie is not even equivalent to the supposed punishment, a slap. However, the love and rewards that Allah shows the disable far exceeds their struggles in this life. This life may matter, but only as it is what decides your afterlife. What is more important to a Muslim this life or the hereafter?

I simply try to be a good man no matter the reward or punishment.

But, why would an atheist care about being good. It is because when one acts in a positive manner one is rewarded. This reward is from Allah.

 

[Sententia]

Temporary Marriage in Islamic Law Educate yourself

You do realize that proves my point and not esalam's? Thanks for the link though. Under Islamic Law it is not forbidden for some. Islam splits on the issue and invokes the Koran as proof for its justification.

*sigh*

 

[Sententia]

doesn't specifically mentione temporary marriage.

Appearantly it does:

The consensus of the Shi'i community.
The words of the Qur'an: 'Marry such women as seem good to you!' (4:3), since mut'a is a kind of marriage, but one which men desire to perform by expending their property.
The words of the Qur'an: 'So those of them whom you enjoy, give to them their appointed wages' (4:24). The word istimta' (enjoy), unless otherwise qualified, signifies 'temporary marriage.'
Ibn Mas'ud's version of the Qur'an, which adds the words 'to a specified term ' to the above verse.
There is no disagreement over the fact that mut'a was allowed at the beginning of Islam. So those who claim that the verse was abrogated must prove their assertion.
The principle from which discussion must begin is that mut'a is permitted. That it should be forbidden must be proven.
The words of 'Umar concerning the 'two mut'as'. Here 'Umar tells us that at the time of the Prophet, mut'a was permitted, i.e., that it was a part of the religion of Islam. Proof must be provided that it is no longer so.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Prove it.

You asked the question and I agreed.....Prove what...?

For pleasure, it is inherent knowledge that the Primate cannot pass on his genes through homosexual behavior. It is an animal fulfilling its sexual impulses.

How would you know? We have clear cases of pair bonding in primates, penguins, male lions....that'ts not centered around sex....

Perhaps there is no need to mate? They have a child and the Penguins obviously fulfill each other's desires.

Then we agree...it's not about the sex....

 

[Bismillah]

We know of Lesbian as well as gay couples who have raised children and the child doesn't grow to become a lesbian or homosexual

Yes, these couples also happen to have children so in some of these children there should be a greater chance to be homosexual. Yet, there isn't and thus there is no evidence of Genetics playing a large part in homosexuality. Enviornmental factors doesn't just include how your parents view Gay people. Perhaps the children of the homosexuals were adversely affected in their childhood by having two mommies or daddies? Perhaps, they were affected by school children taunting them that they subliminally turned away from homosexuality? Perhaps, the "mystique" of homosexuals is what attracts people and those who are close to homosexuals, while open minded, are not necessarily turned gay. Take my other two examples. Both males in Saudi Arabia and Prisons suffer from increasing percentages of homosexuals. This is due to the fact that sexual impulses directed at females in both cases are largely constricted. They turn homosexual and when the sexual restrictions are gone, they return to being heterosexuals. This is a clear indicator of environmental stimulus affecting someone's sexual preferences.

 

[Commoner]

Yes, why would God punish people unjustly?

So why are you claiming that it's a test when you can clearly see it must be a punishment

Allah rewards those who suffer in this world far beyond what he rewards those who are blessed. Even those who are healthy are tested. If I have a functioning tongue do I use it to use profanity or read the verses of the Qur'an? If a person is born without a leg is he not rewarded for his patience and daily struggles?

What kind of a reward? Not being able to walk properly? No, there's no reward.

A cookie is not even equivalent to the supposed punishment, a slap. However, the love and rewards that Allah shows the disable far exceeds their struggles in this life. This life may matter, but only as it is what decides your afterlife. What is more important to a Muslim this life or the hereafter?

Why would you need to get slapped to get rewarded in the afterlife - that's what I find perverse. And why would those who stay after getting slapped get more reward than those who leave? Or if they both get the same reward - what's the point of the slap anyway?! Just give me a cookie bcause you're a good person and want to share it with me. Not as a payment for me letting you punch me.

Call your god and tell him to stop slapping you - then he might be worthy of some devotion.

But, why would an atheist care about being good. It is because when one acts in a positive manner one is rewarded. This reward is from Allah.

You know, if we start down this road you should be prepared for another hundred pages on this topic alone. So I suggest we don't - I'll simply say that whatever the reason we do things, for an atheist the motivation certainly doesn't come from a hope of a reward in the afterlife.

 

[Commoner]

Yes, these couples also happen to have children so in some of these children there should be a greater chance to be homosexual. Yet, there isn't and thus there is no evidence of Genetics playing a large part in homosexuality.

You're confusing heredity of genes with heredity of traits. They are not the same thing, so your conclusion is false in this case.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes, these couples also happen to have children so in some of these children there should be a greater chance to be homosexual. Yet, there isn't and thus there is no evidence of Genetics playing a large part in homosexuality.

Maybe you misunderstood me. I agree.....Just because you have two gay parents doesn't mean you'll grow up gay.

Enviornmental factors doesn't just include how your parents view Gay people. Perhaps the children of the homosexuals were adversely affected in their childhood by having two mommies or daddies? Perhaps, they were affected by school children taunting them that they subliminally turned away from homosexuality?

Again, I have read cases of this...but what's interesting is that you can't pin point either cases. Some repress their sexuality because some of the things above and grow up and express openly their sexuality....others deal with the taunting and such and have grown up heterosexual....My point is....a gay parent doesn't necessarily produce a child that's going to grow up gay.

Perhaps, the "mystique" of homosexuals is what attracts people and those who are close to homosexuals, while open minded, are not necessarily turned gay.

 

[Bismillah]

So why are you claiming that it's a test when you can clearly see it must be a punishment

It is not a punishment. I am saying God would never punish unjustly. It was a rhetorical question.

What kind of a reward? Not being able to walk properly? No, there's no reward.

Entering into the gates of heaven without his disability.

Why would you need to get slapped to get rewarded in the afterlife - that's what I find perverse. And why would those who stay after getting slapped get more reward than those who leave? Or if they both get the same reward - what's the point of the slap anyway?! Just give me a cookie bcause you're a good person and want to share it with me. Not as a payment for me letting you punch me.

Call your god and tell him to stop slapping you - then he might be worthy of some devotion.

This is not a slap. It is what you make out of what you are given. If you are given less, less is expected of you. If you are given more, then more is expected for you. Those who are born healthy are held with a greater accountability of their sins.

Being less privileged then others, this is not a permanent state. The fleeting nature of this life and the infinity of the next clearly shows which is more important .

Yes we suffer. But, we are also blessed. We suffer for what we are awarded. Our ability to think. To ask Allah to give us the power of reasoning and then ask to be sent clearly to Heaven is nonsensical. Why be granted a gift and not use it? Suffering is an act of love. When we suffer for Allah, Allah returns this love infinity times over.

I don't understand your second part, what do you mean by stay?

You know, if we start down this road you should be prepared for another hundred pages on this topic alone. So I suggest we don't - I'll simply say that whatever the reason we do things, for an atheist the motivation certainly doesn't come from a hope of a reward in the afterlife.

I'm not saying that the motivation of an Atheist to do good would be reward in the afterlife. That isn't logical. What I am saying is that when a person does good, that person finds himself in a favorable position. That is why people are motivated to do good because of the positive affects of acting with decency. Otherwise, there would be no compelling reason for an atheist to do good if it wasn't in his self-interest. I believe that these positive effects are the result of Allah blessing you for your good acts.

You're confusing heredity of genes with heredity of traits. They are not the same thing, so your conclusion is false in this case.

A trait is a feature passed down from your parent i.e temperament. How would homosexuality be a trait? If it were, then wouldn't you see a greater connection between children and parents, since after all traits are inherited from your parents right?

 

[Bismillah]

This is incorrect. We know of Lesbian as well as gay couples who have raised children and the child doesn't grow to become a lesbian or homosexual.....one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

I read this and believed that you are arguing against external factors changing a person's sexuality later in life. What are you arguing?

Again, I have read cases of this...but what's interesting is that you can't pin point either cases. Some repress their sexuality because some of the things above and grow up and express openly their sexuality....others deal with the taunting and such and have grown up heterosexual....My point is....a gay parent doesn't necessarily produce a child that's going to grow up gay.

I completely agree, why are we arguing? You can't pinpoint a general trend of environmental factors precisely because it is so wide ranging. You can't hope to encompass them all in say one instance which would leave someone Gay. I really have no idea what you are trying to tell me

Haha this was prompted by previous posts by others that those who are straight wonder, and apparently do other undisclosed things, about being Gay. I don't actually believe it. Just point it out xD

 

[Bismillah]

Balance FX, it depends on who you ask. Not being a Shia Muslim I can't answer from their perspective, but from the Sunni perspective the Prophet banned all future temporary marriages and take it that the word "istamta" as a normal marriage. Whereas to my knowledge some Shias take it to mean seeking pleasure or a temporary marriage.