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Proving the existence of Allah (swt) to an atheist

Commoner

Headache
It is not a punishment. I am saying, God would never punish unjustly. A rhetorical question.

I think we're going around in circles. If a punishment has been made, it must have either been "justified" (for doing something wrong) or unjustified (to slap your children around and test their devotion). In neither case do I see it as appropriate behaviour for a merciful, loving god.

Entering into the gates of heaven without his disability.

And how would not having that disability in the first place prevent that? In fact, forget earth, where's the stairway to heaven?

This is not a slap. It is what you make out of what you are given. If you are given less, less is expected of you. If you are given more, then more is expected for you. Those who are born healthy are held with a greater accountability of their sins.

And is there a particular reason for this game? That some would be given less and some given more? That there would be sin and punishment? That there would be "tests" to test you devotion? To a god that already knows everything, this game would be completely irrelevant. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were describing a child to me when you describe your god.

Being less privileged then others, this is not a permanent state. The fleeting nature of this life and the infinity of the next leave clearly leave nothing to balance.

Well, or it is permanent, there is no god and this life is all we have.

Yes we suffer. But, we are also blessed. We suffer for what we are awarded. Our ability to think. To ask Allah to give us the power of reasoning and then ask to be sent clearly to Heaven is nonsensical. Why be granted a gift and not use it? Suffering is an act of love. When we suffer for Allah, Allah returns this love infinity times over.

Suffering is an act of love?! Suffering, in a world with a god, is an invention of that god. Merciful? Loving? Not to me.

I don't understand your second part, what do you mean by stay?

Those who stay devoted (I went back to my slapped wife example).

A trait is a feature passed down from your parent i.e temperament. How would homosexuality be a trait? If it were, then wouldn't you see a greater connection between children and parents, since after all traits are inherited from your parents right?

That something is in our genetic code makes us homosexual doesn't mean that when we pass along those genes to our children, the same trait will emerge in our children. But that doesn't mean homosexuality is not genetic.
 

Bismillah

Submit
I think we're going around in circles. If a punishment has been made, it must have either been "justified" (for doing something wrong) or unjustified (to slap your children around and test their devotion). In neither case do I see it as appropriate behaviour for a merciful, loving god.
We are going around in circles because of wordplay. You call it punishment, I call it a test.

And how would not having that disability in the first place prevent that? In fact, forget earth, where's the stairway to heaven?
One man is born with functioning eyes. Instead of using this gift of sight for constructive purposes he looks at unbecoming things. His sin could prevent him from going to Heaven. Either way as I have said before, those who are handicapped receive a greater reward and hold more of Allah's forgiveness. They experience a "superior heaven" (as there are 7 layers of heaven in Islam).

What do you mean stairway to Heaven. Do you mean the path to Heaven? Obviously, I hold it to be the Qur'an and the teachings stated within it.

And is there a particular reason for this game? That some would be given less and some given more? That there would be sin and punishment? That there would be "tests" to test you devotion? To a god that already knows everything, this game would be completely irrelevant. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were describing a child to me when you describe your god.
To prove to Shaitan, the Angels, and ourselves that humans ultimately follow the path of Islam. There would be sin and there would be punishment to show us all that those who used their reasoning process wrong are punished and those who were right in their faith of Allah are rewarded. You are asking questions that are beyond me. I don't think I nor anyone else can understand why God created us, the Angels, or anything at all in fact. All I do know is that I can play the role I am given.

Well, or it is permanent, there is no god and this life is all we have.
But we are assuming that Islam is correct aren't we? That is how you can ask me, if Islam is correct, why are there some people born with disadvantages? So in relation to our discussion, this life is nothing as compared to the hereafter.

Suffering is an act of love?! Suffering, in a world with a god, is an invention of that god. Merciful? Loving? Not to me.
Suffering isn't an act of love? Is labor an act of love? Is a dad working two part-time jobs an act of love? Suffering on behalf of someone else is the greatest love one can give. Yet it is not a world of suffering. You are looking at it through only one side. God rewards those who face obstacles as well and this reward far outweighs the suffering.


That something is in our genetic code makes us homosexual doesn't mean that when we pass along those genes to our children, the same trait will emerge in our children. But that doesn't mean homosexuality is not genetic.
Statistically speaking even if the gene is not always passed down, there would at least be a trend of some children or even grandchildren inheriting homosexuality. A trend within families. A history of homosexuals. Some genes of a parent won't be passed along, however is some are then it is only a number game until homosexuality is passed down the generations right? Also what do you mean the same trait will emerge in our children? The same homosexual trait?

Those who stay after "getting slapped" are shown a greater reward precisely due to their faith. However, that does not mean God will smite those who turn away from Islam. He will judge their actions accordingly. Also, in my experiences, it's always those who have the least to be thankful for who are the most thankful...
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Appearantly it does:

clarify the following for me in order to respond to you.

1 are you arguing with this post that temporary marriage is mentioned in the quran?
2 are you arguing that temporary marriage is allowed due to the qurans soposed mentioning of temporary marriage?
3 all of the above??
 

Commoner

Headache
We are going around in circles because of wordplay. You call it punishment, I call it a test.
No, but it's not wordplay - I don't care if you say it's a test. But by your own logic, it must be a result of a past or future wrong-doings in order to be administered.
One man is born with functioning eyes. Instead of using this gift of sight for constructive purposes he looks at unbecoming things. His sin could prevent him from going to Heaven. Either way as I have said before, those who are handicapped receive a greater reward and hold more of Allah's forgiveness. They experience a "superior heaven" (as there are 7 layers of heaven in Islam).
Hmmm, you have this idea that if the reward is great enough, I can torure you all I want. It really seems to me to be a case of paying someone for punching him. I don't find that moral or loving.

And this other idea that god is somehow shielding you from your own sins by denying you the option to sin is troublesome on many levels. FIrst of all - if that's the case, why is sin being considered at all when considering those that are fit and those that are not? Surely, since god already knew your sins in advance and decided to prevent some from "achieving" those sins, he has already decided in advance who would get in and who wouldn't. And secondly - the concept of free will flies out of the window - not only does god know everything you will do before you are born, he aslo changes your attributes in order to change your, in his eyes, predetermined path.
What do you mean stairway to Heaven. Do you mean the path to Heaven? Obviously, I hold it to be the Qur'an and the teachings stated within it. But we are assuming that Islam is correct aren't we? That is how you can ask me, if Islam is correct, why are there some people born with disadvantages? So in relation to our discussion, this life is nothing as compared to the hereafter.
I was being facetious, just a little anti-religious rant.
To prove to Shaitan, the Angels, and ourselves that humans ultimately follow the path of Islam. There would be sin and there would be punishment to show us all that those who used their reasoning process wrong are punished and those who were right in their faith of Allah are rewarded. You are asking questions that are beyond me. I don't think I nor anyone else can understand why God created us, the Angels, or anything at all in fact. All I do know is that I can play the role I am given.
Yes, to prove to Shaitan, the Angels and ourselves - that's what I find perverse. This little game that serves to prove something - it's irrelevant, god already knows the answer, hell - he controls all the rules and all the moves of the game are predetermined for him. There was no need to play it out - just like when playing Eeny, meeny, miny, moe - I already know what the result is goning to be in advance, only children need to play it out until they finally figure it out.

In my eyes, if god were to exists, he would be far from the attributes you describe. Not unlike North koreans who praise Kim Jong-il as a hero and a loving leader. From the outside - it all seems much different.
Suffering isn't an act of love? Is labor an act of love? Is a dad working two part-time jobs an act of love? Suffering on behalf of someone else is the greatest love one can give. Yet it is not a world of suffering. You are looking at it through only one side. God rewards those who face obstacles as well and this reward far outweighs the suffering.

Choosing to go through something painful because of your love for someone else - that is an act of love. Enduring suffering that has been bestoved upon you by an invisible force in the sky - that's just surviving. There is no choice in the matter and it is certainly not an act of love - neither on the behalf of the one that is suffering, not on the behalf of god.

I don't, as you seem to suggest, think that things are bleak and the world is a horrible place filled with suffering. No, only that if there is a god, then suffering must be his will - and that puts him far from any "merciful" or "loving" attribute.
Statistically speaking even if the gene is not always passed down, there would at least be a trend of some children or even grandchildren inheriting homosexuality. A trend within families. A history of homosexuals. Some genes of a parent won't be passed along, however is some are then it is only a number game until homosexuality is passed down the generations right? Also what do you mean the same trait will emerge in our children? The same homosexual trait?
No, not all genes work in the same way, what you're saying is a gross oversimplification. Although I would find it likely, there needn't be any trend at all. It's not "just a matter of time" before the gay-gene gets passed along. It might even be more likely for a child of two heterosexual parents to be predisposed for homosexuality. Just as in the case of some other traits that get passed along without the parent exibiting the trait - they are the carriers. I mean, you can't just assume things like that without any evidence.
 

Bismillah

Submit
No, but it's not wordplay - I don't care if you say it's a test.
No, it most definitely is. Only by using the word punishment, or its synonyms, you can claim it is a result of "future or past sins".

But by your own logic, it must be a result of a past or future wrong-doings in order to be administered.
How so?

Hmmm, you have this idea that if the reward is great enough, I can torure you all I want. It really seems to me to be a case of paying someone for punching him. I don't find that moral or loving.

And this other idea that god is somehow shielding you from your own sins by denying you the option to sin is troublesome on many levels. FIrst of all - if that's the case, why is sin being considered at all when considering those that are fit and those that are not? Surely, since god already knew your sins in advance and decided to prevent some from "achieving" those sins, he has already decided in advance who would get in and who wouldn't. And secondly - the concept of free will flies out of the window - not only does god know everything you will do before you are born, he aslo changes your attributes in order to change your, in his eyes, predetermined path.

Then this suffering must be taken into context. This life is said to be like the blink of an eye. The afterlife is forever. I think those who are tested and pass are rewarded in a manner that clearly makes up for their suffering. Even if their faith lapses, Allah has a greater compassion and is more generous in his forgiveness of their transgressions.

It is akin to something like this. A man walks to you and says "I have a proposal". "Let me pinch you and as a reward for enduring this pain I will compensate you with a million dollars".

I was being facetious, just a little anti-religious rant.
I have come to realize :p

Yes, to prove to Shaitan, the Angels and ourselves - that's what I find perverse. This little game that serves to prove something - it's irrelevant, god already knows the answer, hell - he controls all the rules and all the moves of the game are predetermined for him. There was no need to play it out - just like when playing Eeny, meeny, miny, moe - I already know what the result is goning to be in advance, only children need to play it out until they finally figure it out.
What exactly is perverse in showing Shaitan, the Angels, and Humanity that Humanity is the best of Allah's creations? Of course there is a need to play it out, we were created weren't we? Should we be stored in a metaphorical rusty shed? The mechanisms of Allah's decisions to create anything at all is beyond me. But, I realize that rewarding Humans beyond their imaginations is anything but perverse.

In my eyes, if god were to exists, he would be far from the attributes you describe.
You describe an ideal world. A world without suffering and disadvantages. If such a world was to exist what would be the purpose of Humanity? In fact, this type of world does exist, but it is only available in the afterlife. How can you judge divine attributes? Would you prefer a God who just didn't create humans?

Choosing to go through something painful because of your love for someone else - that is an act of love. Enduring suffering that has been bestoved upon you by an invisible force in the sky - that's just surviving. There is no choice in the matter and it is certainly not an act of love
If I am born without an arm and still count myself blessed and continue to live my life in accordance to the Qur'an, is that not an act of love. Is it not difficult for me to find myself blessed if I suffer from this problem? Clearly, the hardest part is continuing to be faithful, even after one is born at a disadvantage.

suffering must be his will - and that puts him far from any "merciful" or "loving" attribute.
If suffering is the will of Allah then why are we not placed in Hell from the get go?

No, not all genes work in the same way, what you're saying is a gross oversimplification. Although I would find it likely, there needn't be any trend at all. It's not "just a matter of time" before the gay-gene gets passed along. It might even be more likely for a child of two heterosexual parents to be predisposed for homosexuality. Just as in the case of some other traits that get passed along without the parent exibiting the trait - they are the carriers.
But, as I have said: If they are carriers then this Gene should surface up sooner or later in later generations. Why isn't their a history of homosexuality within specific families?

I mean, you can't just assume things like that without any evidence.
Have I not posted several studies and instances as evidence? I'm not just fantasizing, this is a real theory.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
But, why would an atheist care about being good. It is because when one acts in a positive manner one is rewarded. This reward is from Allah.
Because that is the right thing to be. It is that simple.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
I'm not saying that the motivation of an Atheist to do good would be reward in the afterlife. That isn't logical. What I am saying is that when a person does good, that person finds himself in a favorable position. That is why people are motivated to do good because of the positive affects of acting with decency. Otherwise, there would be no compelling reason for an atheist to do good if it wasn't in his self-interest. I believe that these positive effects are the result of Allah blessing you for your good acts.
Never met a person who does what is good because it is good, and not for anything they may or may not gain?
 

Bismillah

Submit
Because that is the right thing to be. It is that simple.
How do you know this is the right thing to do? You know from the good feelings one experiences once doing a good deed. A person doesn't have to do good for the positive feelings or the positive affects of acting decently. However, these positive consequences are a result and I believe rewards from Allah.
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
You describe an ideal world. A world without suffering and disadvantages. If such a world was to exist what would be the purpose of Humanity? In fact, this type of world does exist, but it is only available in the afterlife.
which of course would according to you beg the very same question....
whats the purpose of humanity in the afterlife? ;)
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
How do you know this is the right thing to do? You know from the good feelings one experiences once doing a good deed. A person doesn't have to do good for the positive feelings or the positive affects of acting decently. However, these positive consequences are a result and I believe rewards from Allah.
I do the best thing I, or anyone else for that matter, can do. Rely on my values, my common sense and my own judgement.
 

Commoner

Headache
No, it most definitely is. Only by using the word punishment, or its synonyms, you can claim it is a result of "future or past sins".

How so?

Well, yes - that's what I was saying - you can call it a test. But a test of a loving god? That's where I think you must consider your own statement that you would have to have a good reason to punish your (hypothetical) children - in order for you to be justified in doing so. God needs the same justification if he is to retain his status of moral authority, does he not? And in that sense, could it really be anything else than a punishment (as well as a test).

Then this suffering must be taken into context. This life is said to be like the blink of an eye. The afterlife is forever. I think those who are tested and pass are rewarded in a manner that clearly makes up for their suffering. Even if their faith lapses, Allah has a greater compassion and is more generous in his forgiveness of their transgressions.

It is akin to something like this. A man walks to you and says "I have a proposal". "Let me pinch you and as a reward for enduring this pain I will compensate you with a million dollars".

Ah, yes, context. I agree and I would most likely not have a problem taking the money for a little pain. But this man that has a proposal for you has unlimited funds, he has unlimited knowledge, unlimited powers and represents the highest moral authority. I find it more like if a respected president of a country were to offer you a million dollars in exchange for letting him pinch you a couple of times. Maybe I'd take the money, but I would certainly loose a lot of respect for him. I don't need presidents and gods that want to play around with me and shower me with candy. Yuck!

What exactly is perverse in showing Shaitan, the Angels, and Humanity that Humanity is the best of Allah's creations? Of course there is a need to play it out, we were created weren't we? Should we be stored in a metaphorical rusty shed? The mechanisms of Allah's decisions to create anything at all is beyond me. But, I realize that rewarding Humans beyond their imaginations is anything but perverse.

What's perverse about an all powerful god showing off to his friends by slapping around his children? What isn't?

No, we should not be stored in a rusty shed. We should be able to live our lives without this "sin" thing being thrown in our faces and without having to worship our creator. It's time to let us go, we're all grown up.

You describe an ideal world. A world without suffering and disadvantages. If such a world was to exist what would be the purpose of Humanity? In fact, this type of world does exist, but it is only available in the afterlife. How can you judge divine attributes? Would you prefer a God who just didn't create humans?

No, no, in my world there is suffering and there are disadvantages. They are just not bestowed upon us by a deity. And there is no virtue in suffering if it is unneeded, none at all. But when you apply a merciful deity to my world, you find out that it just doesn't fit - there might be a god, but he is certainly not a merciful, loving god, the highest moral authority. No, that doesn't follow.

If I am born without an arm and still count myself blessed and continue to live my life in accordance to the Qur'an, is that not an act of love. Is it not difficult for me to find myself blessed if I suffer from this problem? Clearly, the hardest part is continuing to be faithful, even after one is born at a disadvantage.

But why would you want to be faithful. A god that decided to chop you hand off for no partcular reason. Why would you consider continuing to worship such a god is a virtue? Where was the act of love in that, what could be the purpose of such a test? You see, since god already knows the outcome, he could have simply skipped that step - "aha, if I were to take your hand, you'd do this and that - ok, you're in". This game is unnecessary.

If suffering is the will of Allah then why are we not placed in Hell from the get go?

If suffering is the will of Allah, how can you call him merciful and loving? Why is there a hell in the first place? We're not some equals that he needs to punish and control, we're helpless little ants compared to him. Why the hell would there be a hell!?
 

Commoner

Headache
But, as I have said: If they are carriers then this Gene should surface up sooner or later in later generations. Why isn't their a history of homosexuality within specific families?

Have I not posted several studies and instances as evidence? I'm not just fantasizing, this is a real theory.

I'm sorry, I'll have to take some time to answer that.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
It is akin to something like this. A man walks to you and says "I have a proposal". "Let me pinch you and as a reward for enduring this pain I will compensate you with a million dollars".
Neat. You have just described Islam as being a sado/masochistic reward system. Excellent work. It is heartwarming to see it put so bluntly. What I am curious about is why people got this silly idea that they need rewards. It's little more than the theological bribery of the spiritually bankrupt.

What exactly is perverse in showing Shaitan, the Angels, and Humanity that Humanity is the best of Allah's creations?
It is perverse in that it assumes the inferiority of others in comparison to the self-righteousness of the "rightly guided". It is perverse because your very being proves the inherent inferiority of other beings. Sorry, but it is a fairly arrogant and egotistical worldview to hold. The painful reality is that Muslims are not better than everything else in creation.

Of course there is a need to play it out, we were created weren't we? Should we be stored in a metaphorical rusty shed? The mechanisms of Allah's decisions to create anything at all is beyond me. But, I realize that rewarding Humans beyond their imaginations is anything but perverse.
Just by the fact that you are expecting rewards at all, or are even told that you will be rewarded is bad enough, in my view. I would suggest that this whole scenario has developed out of deep insecurity. This system is almost perfect for keeping people content with the misery of their lives with the hopes that if they just keep their heads down and suck it all up that they will be rewarded like a good dog.

I'm not convinced either. If anything, they've made me more skeptical of Islam.
If I have said it once, I have said it a hundred times. The more I learn about Islam and their prophet, Muhammad, the less impressed I become.
(I just finished reading two biographies of Muhammad too. Even in the "good" version by Karen Armstrong, which is highly regarded by many Muslims, Muhammad doesn't come off all that well.)
 
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MissAlice

Well-Known Member
Ugh I've had enough of reading through this thread.

I honestly try and be accepting toward the religion of Islam but the more I read about it the more it makes me think of Hitler and his Mein Kempf.

Sorry I don't wish to offend Muslims on this board but having a family member who suffers from a "disease" and is described as "inferior" and "sick" is more than I can handle....
 

MSizer

MSizer
Sorry I don't wish to offend Muslims on this board but having a family member who suffers from a "disease" and is described as "inferior" and "sick" is more than I can handle....

How polite of you, since a muslim who describes your family member as having a disease or inferior doesn't seem to give a rat's ***** about offending you.

Don't worry, it's foolishness anyway.
 

MissAlice

Well-Known Member
How impolite of me as I failed to point out that most religions use these kinds of tactics...

I guess one thing that tics me off about Islam is how harsh allah treats its "disabled"...
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
How impolite of me as I failed to point out that most religions use these kinds of tactics...

I guess one thing that tics me off about Islam is how harsh allah treats its "disabled"...


It's hard for the Abrahamic religions to convince people on a serious level
nowadays, especially since they can no longer get away with burning you at a stake, beheading, or stoning you to death for disbelief.
 
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