Proving the existence of Allah (swt) to an atheist

[Bismillah]

[qoute]disability??

who said anything about homosexuals being disabled?[/quote] As long as it condemns Islam, who cares if it is true!

 

[Gharib]

As long as it condemns Islam, who cares if it is true!

yeah i forgot about that, who likes muslims anyway? we might as well blame islam for everything. frubals to you bro.

 

[darkendless]

[qoute]disability??

who said anything about homosexuals being disabled?

As long as it condemns Islam, who cares if it is true![/quote]

Truelly scarey

 

[Bismillah]

It was sarcasm.

 

[McBell]

Truelly scarey

Yes it is.
Especially given that they have the opposite attitude of "As long as it supports Islam, who cares if it is true"

 

[Commoner]

Have you seen me argue anything to the contrary?

The definition of punishment: Main Entry: pun·ish·ment
Pronunciation: \ˈpə-nish-mənt\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution

punishment - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

So now that you are presented with the definition of punishment, how is being born with a disability a punishment?

That's a mighty fine definition you've got there, but let me add a couple more so that we won't disregard the all-important "context":

1. a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
2. severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
3. A penalty imposed for wrongdoing
4. Rough handling; mistreatment
5. the fact of being punished, as for an offense or fault.

If it is the work of god - then it's a punishment.

You honestly mean that? Let us say that President Obama, in your view, is a respected President. If he pinches you once and then gives you a million dollars I find it hard you would find fault with him. Oh, it is easy to criticize after the reward is given, yet you would still take the money. Rather, I'm sure you would thank the President sincerely and go of to spend the money as you will.

I honestly mean that. If he started bahaving in such a manner, I'd think he's an idiot. Sure, I might take the money, but I'm not the ultimate moral authority in the sky - I can afford to make mistakes, god can't. That you can get away with doing anything if the "reward" is high enough is such and absurd idea to me, I can't even believe you'd suggest it.

So you don't want Gods who shower you with candy (rewards)? Would you prefer Satan controlling your life?

I don't want anyone controlling my life - not god, not Satan (which is which?).

Why shouldn't we have to worship our creator, he who is responsible for your creation. See, you are an idealist. You wish for a world without Sin. Unfortunately, we are not Angels, we have a decision making process. We are awarded the gift of reasoning, which you are all enjoying within this thread, and thus we have to apply our gift of reasoning. Wishing your life is different won't make it so. Yes, there are trials in this world. Yes, some suffer more in this world then others. But, those who suffer for the sake of Allah are rewarded infinitely more than their sufferings. While these sufferings may seem harsh from the point of view that this is our only life, they do not even hint to blemish enjoyment in the Afterlife. In the Afterlife those who are rewarded by Allah are no longer connected to any problems of the past, they are not influenced by these problems and cannot remember them. It has no bearing in the long run.

What?! I'm not an idealist of any kind, where did you get that idea. I'm even closer to being an objectivist that I am to being an idealist. I don't wish for my life or life in general to be different, what I'm pointing out is that the world we live in doesn't mesh with the concept of a merciful, loving god. Just as I like coffee, but if you say it's tea, I'll explain why it's not. It's not because I don't want it to be tea, it's ecause it isn't tea.

Exactly - if god exists and there is an afterlife, these "test and trials" as you describe them have no bearing in the long run - they are irrelevant. I'd hope that an all powerful god would realize that and simply let our lives run their course, without interferance.

Take another example. When newborns come out of the womb it has become something of a tradition, in America at least, to circumcise that child. The child is not given any anesthesia because he will not remember his pain. He will not remember his suffering and will not be affected by it at all. Likewise a person tested in this world will not remember his suffering while Allah will remember his show of faith. Those who strive in the name of Allah are blessed.

Now you've done it. Man, the perfect creation, huh,...well, but what if we snip off this part here. There - perfect. What a stupid idea that is. I condemn circumcision being performed for religious reasons, anywhere.

The British Medical Association (2006) states that "it is now widely accepted, including by the BMA, that this surgical procedure has medical and psychological risks." ( Medical Ethics Committee (June 2006). "The law and ethics of male circumcision – guidance for doctors")

According to the American Academy of Pediatrics' 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement, “There is considerable evidence that newborns who are circumcised without analgesia experience pain and psychologic stress.” It therefore recommended using pain relief for circumcision. (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/pediatrics;103/3/686.pdf)

Lander et al. demonstrated that babies circumcised without anesthesia showed behavioral and physiological signs of pain and distress. (Lander, J.; Brady-Fryer, B., Metcalfe, J.B., Nazarali, S. and S. Muttitt (1997). "Comparison of ring block, dorsal penile nerve block, and topical anesthesia for neonatal circumcision: a randomized controlled trial")

Yes, in a religious world you seem to be shooting for an ideal world. You seem to want to be rewarded without reason and you want to abolish sin. Our path is not that of Allah's other creations, we are special. We are tested and for our tests we receive the greatest rewards out of all other creations.

I do not want to be rewarded at all. There is no such thing as "sin", and why should there be?

 

[YmirGF]

You compared it to masochism, which is the sexual gratification found from inflicting pain. Yes, it is about power and how Allah uses his power for the benefits for those who believe.

So, you are saying that Allah can be bribed with good deeds? Doesn't that strike you are a peculiar way for a god to act? It sounds pretty human to me.

Why do you find this as disgusting? Because we are superior to the other creations of Allah does not mean we can abuse them. But, I would say that I am in a position to do much more good in my life then say a Chimpanzee. Do you view your worth as comparable with that of a dog? Of course not.

Frankly, I am not any more important than any other being in existence. FULL STOP. I am disgusted by the suggestion that the human animals is "superior" to other forms of being. We are simply DIFFERENT -- NOT superior. I think some folks are in desperate need of a reality check.

Yes, I agree with you. The Muslims of the world do not find themselves in a favorable situation in the World. However, the faults of the believers does not indicate that there is faults within the system.

Well, it certainly is indicative, though I agree, it is not solid proof.

However, the reason for this isn't merely "religious", as in God abandoned us. It is the result of our decisions. It is the result of splintering into different sects arguing with each other as well as Political Ideologies separating Muslim states. This does nothing to change the fact that the Ummah is indeed required to help and care for society, indeed it shows the desperate need for it.

In theory, the Ummah IS society. In the pristine land of pure Islam, there would be no unbelievers and everything would be peace, love and beards. I think part of the problem is how Muslims perceive non-believers. Rather than unite mankind, the concept of the Ummah merely succeeded in splitting it in two. Nice work.

You view it as a Game show I view it as a test. That is fine we have differing viewpoints, but what is so repulsive of the idea that this life here is something in which every person is supposed to live with the highest morals? I don't see this life as some kind of Game Show one, because everyone is given the choice to what path they commit themselves to, not just a limited amount of contestants who compete for physical prices. I see it as a hallway with the path forking to the left and the right. The end destinations are clearly printed on top of the door frames, it is our own choice as to which path to pick.

If only reality were so cut and dried. It isn't and it is somewhat delusional to think that it is. I do understand why you think it is a test, but to me that is a very simplistic viewpoint. If you said it was an experiment with no predefined outcome other than the results themselves then I would agree.

 

[Tiapan]

I saw a great movie last night on World Movies Austar, its title was
Moolaade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moolaad%C3%A9
An interesting introspective to Sengalese Islamic society.
It would appear there is hope if the women of this primitive bunch of neoliths get their way.
Otherwise we are doomed to islamic neonazism.

Cheers

 

[Gharib]

I saw a great movie last night on World Movies Austar, its title was
Moolaade
Moolaadé - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An interesting introspective to Sengalese Islamic society.
It would appear there is hope if the women of this primitive bunch of neoliths get their way.
Otherwise we are doomed to islamic neonazism.

Cheers

yeah you keep watching that US crap.

 

[MissAlice]

yeah you keep watching that US crap.

It's not from the U.S., apparently it's from Africa and yes there is such a thing as female circumcision.

Whether it's truly an Islamic tradition or not is questionable.

 

[Gharib]

It's not from the U.S., apparently it's from Africa and yes there is such a thing as female circumcision.

Whether it's truly an Islamic tradition or not is questionable.

so none of you know whether it is islamic or not and still you all say it's islamic. :areyoucra

 

[MissAlice]

I don't believe I ever said it was Islamic....

In fact it was prevelantly practiced before Islam.

 

[Gharib]

I don't believe I ever said it was Islamic....

In fact it was prevelantly practiced before Islam.

only in africa or the arab lands also?

 

[MissAlice]

Apparently and in some parts of Asia.

I knew a girl from Africa that saw these practices take place and said she was appalled by it.

What's interesting is most muslims reject the practice.

 

[Gharib]

Apparently and in some parts of Asia.

I knew a girl from Africa that saw these practices take place and said she was appalled by it.

What's interesting is most muslims reject the practice.

i have no knowledge about it anyway, so i can't say much about it. don't know if it's islamic or not

 

[elisheba]

so none of you know whether it is islamic or not and still you all say it's islamic. :areyoucra

It is not Islamic. There are hadiths about marital pleasure for the wife. A husband and wife are to be clothing for each other - protection, comfort, warmth,etc.

 

[nameless]

so none of you know whether it is islamic or not and still you all say it's islamic. :areyoucra

from the islamic point of view, it is god who creates humans, so there should be some reason behind god creating that overlying skin. Doing circumcision is against the will of god, so circumcision is unislamic. Might be some unhygienic living led to some diseases and thus started doing circumcision.

 

[Gharib]

from the islamic point of view, it is god who creates humans, so there should be some reason behind god creating that overlying skin. Doing circumcision is against the will of god, so circumcision is unislamic.

how do you know that circumcision is against the will of god? what if god wants for circumcision to happen? it is obligatory for men to be circumcised. but i do not know about the women.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"it is obligatory for men to be circumcised."

Why?

Your god make a design error?

 

[nameless]

how do you know that circumcision is against the will of god? what if god wants for circumcision to happen? it is obligatory for men to be circumcised. but i do not know about the women.

lol,why god wants circumcision to happen?
if that skin is unnecessary and is to be circumcised, then god wont be placing skin over that.
muslims believes god exists for the reason he created everything perfect, so no alterations is to be done to our body, doing so it means god lack skill in creating body perfectly. So circumcision is unislamic.