Put God on trial!

[blü 2]

Ok, I'd try to also (as you did) wish you 'good luck with that' except I know it won't be luck actually that determines a person's outcome, but what they choose, whether they choose the good, or prefer to stay in old wrongs they have preferred so far. Regardless of whether a person calls it 'karma' or whatever else, like 'just desserts' it will be that way: God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds." And that's why Christ came, to help us with that.

An input of luck never goes amiss ...

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Could you imagine being an ancient Israelite, and putting babies, pregnant women, and children to the sword because God ordered it!?

Could you imagine going up to terrified , innocent, screaming children, and thrusting your sword/spear into them?

I wouldn't even feel like a man anymore I would feel so low!

The God of the Bible is simply very sick!

Even Genghis Khan adopted orphans in the enemy cities he conquered and welcomed POWS into his military to be officers even. It wasn't total scorched earth policies!

I'm so glad I haven't caused a tiny fraction of .01% of the pain and suffering God is responsible!

God sometimes didn't command total exterminations. He occasionally sanctioned taking traumatized virgins (whose family just got violently killed), as sex slaves, condemning them to a lifetime of humiliation and agony!

I'm sorry, running your sword through pregnant women, babies, and children, even in obedience to God, and taking traumatized virgins as sex slaves, is disgusting and disturbing crimes against humanity NO MATTER HOW YOU INTERPRET IT!!!

I think it's extremely sad and wrong that particular God cannot be overthrown, replaced by someone compassionate/generous, and put him on trial for his war crimes, and extreme stinginess in managing graces and exercising omnipotence!

I'm trying to respect this God, as I believe it adds to the powers of my prayers, (and pleases some of the violently raped and murdered girls and suicides I bless and pray for), but when you are dealing with the ugliest war criminal, and greatest cause of misery, disasters, death, destruction, sorrow, and agony in our world, what the hell is there that deserves respect??

Put the greatest criminal there ever was on trial!!!

If you don't mind me asking a couple of questions. Let's assume that the "god" you describe as you described it does not exist. And further, let's assume that no concept of a god exists; i.e. there is no god, and there are no gods.

1. In your opinion, who then is responsible for everything you described?
2. Can the Big Bang be blamed for what you have listed?
3. Can the natural laws of the universe that exist be blamed?

Again assuming a) that the "god" you describe as you described it does not exist and b) that no concept of a god exists; i.e. there is no god, and there are no gods.

Thanks.

 

[Spiderman]

If you don't mind me asking a couple of questions. Let's assume that the "god" you describe as you described it does not exist. And further, let's assume that no concept of a god exists; i.e. there is no god, and there are no gods.

1. In your opinion, who then is responsible for everything you described?
2. Can the Big Bang be blamed for what you have listed?
3. Can the natural laws of the universe that exist be blamed?

Again assuming a) that the "god" you describe as you described it does not exist and b) that no concept of a god exists; i.e. there is no god, and there are no gods.

Thanks.

Obviously people are responsible under those conditions!

But I have strong conviction God exists.

Therefore, he could enlighten myself and others, strengthen us, and not leave people confused, stupid, powerless, and tempted to do evil!

He could ease people's pain and suffering. He has given me graces, for which I am thankful for.

But overall, life has been a dark, confusing , depressing, disturbing nightmare for myself, and so many!

The God who hides himself and truth, and refuses to heal, enlighten, anoint, and guide people, is the biggest cause of the nightmare circus!

 

[halbhh]

Obviously people are responsible under those conditions!

But I have strong conviction God exists.

Therefore, he could enlighten myself and others, strengthen us, and not leave people confused, stupid, powerless, and tempted to do evil!

He could ease people's pain and suffering. He has given me graces, for which I am thankful for.

But overall, life has been a dark, confusing , depressing, disturbing nightmare for myself, and so many!

The God who hides himself and truth, and refuses to heal, enlighten, anoint, and guide people, is the biggest cause of the nightmare circus!

Well, one way to deal with challenges of life, the problems that come at one, is to learn the wisdom offered, and get the aid offered. Here's the best guide I know of, and I read very many from around the world, so that 'best' is the best among the hundreds of various thinkers/philosophers I read.
And he taught this surprising way:
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Matthew 11 NIV

So, the way I know of to begin to listen and learn from him is begin reading what he said, and one good place to start would be the Sermon on the Mount, here:
Matthew 5 NIV

Where you don't have to at first understand all the meanings, but instead the main goal is just to truly listen, so that you absorb, over time (naturally). So, I read slowly often when it's this kind of stuff, because it can be deeper than it seems at first, and so I trust that way of just listening and letting the words soak in so that over time they move me the right direction.

 

[Spiderman]

Well, one way to deal with challenges of life, the problems that come at one, is to learn the wisdom offered, and get the aid offered. Here's the best guide I know of, and I read very many from around the world, so that 'best' is the best among the hundreds of various thinkers/philosophers I read.
And he taught this surprising way:
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Matthew 11 NIV

So, one way to do that is to begin reading what he said, and one good place to start would be the Sermon on the Mount, here:
Matthew 5 NIV

Where you don't have to instantly understand all, but instead the main goal is just to truly listen, so that you absorb, over time. So, I read slowly often when it's this kind of stuff, because it can be deeper than it seems at first, and so I trust that way of just listening and letting the words soak in so that over time they move me the right direction.

I love so much of what Christ taught, but almost never is he faithful to his word. He said "faith of a mustard seed can move mountains, and that those who believe in him will do the works that he does and greater works than that." That is clearly falsehood!

Is he going to tell me which spouse to marry? I was certain he was telling me who to marry, and I jumped off a three-story building the day I proposed marriage to her?

I proceeded to hear Jesus continue telling me to marry that woman. We got into a friendship for about a year , which resulted in an eventual restraining order. After I believe the restraining order expired, I continued writing her letters and it led to some serious troubles.

People say that woman is petrified of me! My whole basis in my pursuit of her was signs that I was getting from scripture, and she has the name of a scripture character.

My surname is alternative for Jacob , the husband of Leah. Her name is Leah. I was reading about a 20th century figure leader whose surname means Jacob at the time I met her, and I thought that God was speaking to me through the incident, because it was love at first sight.

I have never loved another human being a fraction of as much as I love her. Yet there is currently a restraining order! I have put her through a nightmare , and she has put me through a nightmare, and it was based off of God's word!

You can see why I am disgusted with God's word? It almost killed me, and permanently traumatized somebody else!

 

[Spiderman]

Also, St Louis De Montfort was my favorite canonized author, and he says the elect are Jacob , and we are called to be Jacob. The 20th century figure , whose surname means Jacob, that I was studying at the time, died Feast of St Louis de montfort, it all seemed like a sign!

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Obviously people are responsible under those conditions!

Okay. So, in a situation that there is no god or gods everything described in your list are actions that humans are responsible for. Yet, wouldn't it stand to reason that based on your OP that the humans are still not responsible? Wouldn't the next logical step be that the cause of there being humans is responsible? Like the Big Bang, single cell organisms, or the laws of nature that allowed humans to evolve in their current state?

But I have strong conviction God exists.

So, according to your conviction:

1. What is a god?
2. Who defined what said god is and isn't?
3. Did said definition come from said god or from a human's self imposed definition? If yes, where did it define it?
4. Did said god define how it operates, or doesn't operate in, within the universe? If yes, where did it define it?

 

[Spiderman]

Okay. So, in a situation that there is no god or gods everything described in your list are actions that humans are responsible. Yet, wouldn't it stand to reason that based on your OP that the humans are still not responsible? Wouldn't the next logical step be that the cause of there being humans is responsible? Like the Big Bang, single cell organisms, or the laws of nature that allowed humans to evolve in their current state?



So, according to your conviction:

1. What is a god?
2. Who defined what said god is and isn't?
3. Did said definition come from said god or from a human's self imposed definition? If yes, where did it define it?
4. Did said god define how it operates, or doesn't operate in, within the universe? If yes, where did it define it?

Obviously since I don't understand God or hear God, I don't believe I know who God is, so I cannot answer the questions.

Mankind is not responsible entirely for being stupid and blind. God could open our eyes and grant the graces we pray for. He refuses to, so humanity behaves like blind , ignorant , stupid, sick, depraved, savage , jack asses!

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Obviously since I don't understand God or hear God, I don't believe I know who God is, so I cannot answer the questions.

Understood.

Mankind is not responsible entirely for being stupid and blind.

What evidence do you have that mankind is stupid and blind? Mankind seems preety intelligent and advanced. It also appears to me that mankind has the ability to overcome and resolve all kinds of problems and challenges.

God could open our eyes and grant the graces we pray for.

This goes back to the need to have a good definition of what a god is and what a god is not. That will determine if a) said god has already opened eyes, b) has already granted graces, and c) is willing to do so in the way that some humans want vs. the way that other humans want.

He refuses to, so humanity behaves like blind , ignorant , stupid, sick, depraved, savage , jack asses!

It sounds here that you are saying that human free will should be done away with. If human behavior is what you describe only because the god you describe is not "stepping in" you have the problem of, "who gets to define how and when said god intervenes and to what level."

 

[Spiderman]

Understood.



What evidence do you have that mankind is stupid and blind? Mankind seems preety intelligent and advanced. It also appears to me that mankind has the ability to overcome and resolve all kinds of problems and challenges.



This goes back to the need to have a good definition of what a god is and what a god is not. That will determine if a) said god has already opened eyes, b) has already granted graces, and c) is willing to do so in the way that some humans want vs. the way that other humans want.



It sounds here that you are saying that human free will should be done away with. If human behavior is what you describe only because the god you describe is not "stepping in" you have the problem of, "who gets to define how and when said god intervenes and to what level."

For one, God created Heaven, Earth, and all creatures combined with all creation.

God is all knowing! God is all seeing! God is all powerful!

Yes, spiritually, humanity is starving, poor, bankrupt, sick, divided, confused, pathetic! God is absolutely the sadistic monster, and sick , foul, disgusting, irresponsible, apathetic Father, and cruel sociopath who is the cause of the world's misery!

 

[Ehav4Ever]

For one, God created Heaven, Earth, and all creatures combined with all creation.

God is all knowing! God is all seeing! God is all powerful!

Again, where did these definitions come from? People? Said "god?" What source of material designates this dichotomy? Who has the most accurate understanding of said text? If it not a text, what is the source?

Yes, spiritually, humanity is starving, poor, bankrupt, sick, divided, confused, pathetic!

A few questions here:

1. What is "spiritually" and who or what defines what it is and what it isn't?
   • What is the source for said definition?
2. Are you sure that all of humanity agrees with your view of the state of humanity?
3. Even if you analysis of humanity is true what is your proof that humanity didn't put itself in that sitaution?
4. Also, what if humanity is not the god you described's focus?
   • Maybe the planets are and humans are like flees or parisites and the weather conditions are like an immune system reaction to a virus.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

God is absolutely the sadistic monster, and sick , foul, disgusting, irresponsible, apathetic Father, and cruel sociopath who is the cause of the world's misery!

So, it sounds like you are advocating one or all of a couple things.

The god you are describing, as you described it above, should either:

1. Strip humanity of free will in order to end the elements of humanity you described that humanity won't freely choose to control.
   • Essentially, make life like a chess board where said god makes all of the moves and humans do what said god wants at all times - nothing more or less.
2. or, remove humanity from reality and thus remove the problems that you mentioned.

This brings me to a question. If the god you are describing makes the following pronouncement.

"Humanity. I have seen your problems and I have a solution. I have 7 rules of life that break down into 66 subrules. Follow them exactly as I give them to you and you will prosper. The system I have built you into works on them and you 100% have the ability to do them as I am giving to them. It is easier than going out and colonizing dead or desolate planets.

Yet, don't do them, or only partially do, and it is causes an error in the system. You know like misusing an appliance or a tool. Are you willing to accept this deal for yourself and all future generations?

You have two chooses: would you rather choose to do them on your own or would you rather that I make you do them and any deviation from you individually or as a society will have swift and "universallly fair" just implemented. Which would you prefer? "​

What do you think would be the response of most people to the above?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But overall, life has been a dark, confusing , depressing, disturbing nightmare for myself, and so many!

I have seen evidence that humanity has the ability to reverse the actions of other elements of humanity using the resources that exist on the planet. Here are a few examples of what i am talking about.

The man who grew his own Amazon rainforest - BBC World Service

Kids Take Action Against Ocean Plastic

Earthships: A House Made From Beer Cans Sparks a Movement

Israel’s tale of successful desert farming

Pros and cons of Superadobe Earthbag homes

 

[Spiderman]

Again, where did these definitions come from? People? Said "god?" What source of material designates this dichotomy? Who has the most accurate understanding of said text? If it not a text, what is the source?



A few questions here:

1. What is "spiritually" and who or what defines what it is and what it isn't?
   • What is the source for said definition?
2. Are you sure that all of humanity agrees with your view of the state of humanity?
3. Even if you analysis of humanity is true what is your proof that humanity didn't put itself in that sitaution?
4. Also, what if humanity is not the god you described's focus?
   • Maybe the planets are and humans are like flees or parisites and the weather conditions are like an immune system reaction to a virus.

Your many questions mean nothing to me. If God created the world, if he created people, which I'm convinced he did, if the Bible has much truth, which I'm convinced it does, God could speak up, end division, guide people, not leave people so stupid and without wisdom.

Obviously, I don't know who God is, and I doubt you do either.

I'm not going to play your games of "define wisdom, define spiritual"? Humanity is a sick, confused, disgusting mess, and God could give us healthy minds, help us make good choices. He refuses. It is absolutely disgusting!

 

[Spiderman]

I have seen evidence that humanity has the ability to reverse the actions of other elements of humanity using the resources that exist on the planet. Here are a few examples of what i am talking about.

The man who grew his own Amazon rainforest - BBC World Service

Kids Take Action Against Ocean Plastic

Earthships: A House Made From Beer Cans Sparks a Movement

Israel’s tale of successful desert farming

Pros and cons of Superadobe Earthbag homes

I know there is good out there. It's good to see it sometimes. But overall it has been a nightmare. Many feel abandoned by God, hopeless, like God isn't there.

 

[Spiderman]

So, it sounds like you are advocating one or all of a couple things.

The god you are describing, as you described it above, should either:

1. Strip humanity of free will in order to end the elements of humanity you described that humanity won't freely choose to control.
   • Essentially, make life like a chess board where said god makes all of the moves and humans do what said god wants at all times - nothing more or less.
2. or, remove humanity from reality and thus remove the problems that you mentioned.

This brings me to a question. If the god you are describing makes the following pronouncement.

"Humanity. I have seen your problems and I have a solution. I have 7 rules of life that break down into 66 subrules. Follow them exactly as I give them to you and you will prosper. The system I have built you into works on them and you 100% have the ability to do them as I am giving to them. It is easier than going out and colonizing dead or desolate planets.

Yet, don't do them, or only partially do, and it is causes an error in the system. You know like misusing an appliance or a tool. Are you willing to accept this deal for yourself and all future generations?

You have two chooses: would you rather choose to do them on your own or would you rather that I make you do them and any deviation from you individually or as a society will have swift and "universallly fair" just implemented. Which would you prefer? "​

What do you think would be the response of most people to the above?

I'm not asking God to remove free will. A little help making wise decisions would be nice. Ending all the confusion and division by enlightenment and speaking to people would be a good start.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Your many questions mean nothing to me. If God created the world, if he created people, which I'm convinced he did, if the Bible has much truth, which I'm convinced it does, God could speak up, end division, guide people, not leave people so stupid and without wisdom.

Obviously, I don't know who God is, and I doubt you do either.

I'm not going to play your games of "define wisdom, define spiritual"? Humanity is a sick, confused, disgusting mess, and God could give us healthy minds, help us make good choices. He refuses. It is absolutely disgusting!

I wasn't asking you questions to play games. I was asking to understand your point. I am a Jew, and Jews ask lots of questions; it is a part of the culture. My apologies for disturbing the thread. I won't ask any more.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Obviously, I don't know who God is, and I doubt you do either.

I don't claim to know anything about a god because I don't claim to beleive in one. Again, my apologies for disturbing your thread.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Um....just who do you think is going to resurrect them?

Acts of the Apostles 24:15

 

[Spiderman]

I wasn't asking you questions to play games. I was asking to understand your point. I am a Jew, and Jews ask lots of questions; it is a part of the culture. My apologies for disturbing the thread. I won't ask any more.

I was not aware you don't believe in a God for one.

No need to apologize.

I can understand why you don't believe in God. He leaves people feeling like he is not there.

But it has been revealed to me that supernatural entities exist and influence people, including myself, therefore, it leaves me with no doubt that some sort of God does exist .

I have these convictions based on miracles and fulfilled prophecies, like what happened at Fatima Portugal 1917, and signs and wonders. Coincidences more than coincidence, in my life , lead me to those convictions!

How to describe or know who that God is, or what is a reliable source, becomes impossible! The Bible was the source for some of my resentments in the OP.