Question about Christianity.

[Riverwolf]

So you are saying that all of the Christians could convert to Muslims and any Theist could choose to become an Atheist? I'm not even going to debate this, its absolutely hilarious and I think almost all would agree. I am me and I know whether or not I can just choose to become a Christian. When I say I cannot choose you either beleive that I'm lying or you agree that my non-belief is not my choice, which do you beleive? And like I said before even if we are choosing, we are choosing what we feel is right. We cannot be punished if we believed we were right. And whether or not our religion is right is just chance.

Hitler believed with all his heart and soul that what he was doing was right. What he ultimately wanted was an end to war, and tried to carry this out the only way he knew how: by stamping out all who opposed his views and who he believed to be subhuman.

Using the logic you're providing, Hitler should be admitted into paradise without a second's hesitation. After all, he truly believed he was right.

So this is the reason why you are not Christian? Do you really think that if God exists he would want you to go against what you truly felt was right? Are you saying that a God who punishes you for doing something which you felt was right, is not evil?

I don't believe in "evil" or "good".

I'm not a Christian because I don't believe I'm above nature in any way, and I don't believe that Jesus was a messiah, and I don't believe that God dictated the Torah to Moses.

But I still take what Jesus the Sage said to heart, because I think he said profound things. And I still love the allegories in the story of Adam and Eve that might not be immediately obvious.

I think the Bible is a literary masterpiece.

So you don't hold it against God that you truly felt you were right and doing good, but because you happened to get it wrong (which was not your fault) you are going to be punished? Being right or wrong is not our fault or choice, all we can do is try our best to be right, which is what every decent person does. If we tried our best but were wrong, then we got unlucky - There is nothing punish worthy about getting unlucky. So you've basically said that God will punish us for things which were beyond our control and you already agreed that this is horrible.

I don't believe God is limited by petty human concepts like "right" "wrong" "good" "evil" etc... none of the gods are. (I would expect) They are beyond our mortal minds.

And as I said, we have 100% control over what we do and choose.

All it takes is forsaking pride.

 

[Masourga]

One thing I would like to note here is that no one (outside of babies who don't have the capacity) has never done anything they inherently felt was wrong on some level. I don't care who you are. We've all done the small things at least... skirted around an issue, and felt slightly guilty for it... told a "white" lie... let certainly things slide when we saw another party being taken advantage of, etc. The point being, if there really were a God, and the requirement really were that you had to seek atonement for these "sins" through asking for forgiveness and believing (I am not at all saying this is the case, or that I believe anything remotely similar - this is just for the sake of argument), then you'd still have no case for your "but I lived life as a really good person to the best of my ability" little attempt at a free-pass/excuse.

In fact, if we were standing side by side in judgment before the "powers that be" (may they ever exist in unknowable obscurity), and you started whining about how good a person you were when they pointed you to the downward-leading staircase, I'd still be laughing my butt off even as I descended the stairs behind you.

 

[blueman]

There is a central truth when it applies to salvation and a relationship with God. It explicitly on numerous times states that it is facilitated and through His Son Jesus Christ. I would suggest you reference Romans 1:18-20 and it will clearly provide you with an answer to your question.

 

[UnityNow101]

There is a central truth when it applies to salvation and a relationship with God. It explicitly on numerous times states that it is facilitated and through His Son Jesus Christ. I would suggest you reference Romans 1:18-20 and it will clearly provide you with an answer to your question.

So, truth can only be found through imitation and speculative reasoning which has no relationship with that which is, in actuality? Without the books, theories, and ideas surrounding this God, does he exist? I am not sure either way, although I do not see how people can be so sure that he does. Especially given the fact that we simply imitate that which we have been told is truth, without seeking out what this truth is and whether or not it must be come upon in such a speculative fashion.

 

[blueman]

So, truth can only be found through imitation and speculative reasoning which has no relationship with that which is, in actuality? Without the books, theories, and ideas surrounding this God, does he exist? I am not sure either way, although I do not see how people can be so sure that he does. Especially given the fact that we simply imitate that which we have been told is truth, without seeking out what this truth is and whether or not it must be come upon in such a speculative fashion.

The fact is that it's not speculative reasoning that underscores my belief. I don't believe and have faith "just because", but it is based on the soundness and authenticity of historical (Biblical), archeaoligical, cultural and experiental evidence that resonates in my life and the lives of Christians around the world.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Hitler believed with all his heart and soul that what he was doing was right. What he ultimately wanted was an end to war, and tried to carry this out the only way he knew how: by stamping out all who opposed his views and who he believed to be subhuman.

Using the logic you're providing, Hitler should be admitted into paradise without a second's hesitation. After all, he truly believed he was right.

Hitler truly believed that his strategy was correct, but he also knew that it was evil. Are you saying that Hitler truly believed that he was not committing any evil or was doing anything wrong? I don't know much about Hitler but I doubt that this is true. But if Hitler did not at all know that he was doing anything wrong, then of course he should not be punished.

I don't believe in "evil" or "good".

Ok, but you beleive that God is capable of doing very horrible things and very good things?

I'm not a Christian because I don't believe I'm above nature in any way, and I don't believe that Jesus was a messiah, and I don't believe that God dictated the Torah to Moses.

Are you choosing to beleive that you are not above nature in any way? Are you choosing to believe that Jesus was not a messiah? Are you choosing to believe that God dictated the Torah to Moses? Like I said, if we are choosing then we are choosing because of factors which we cannot control. Religion is not just a simple choice. It is so largely influenced by factors that are beyond your control that you might as well say its not a choice at all. You think its just coincidence how the vast majority of religious people who live in Christian nations become Christians? The same is true for Muslim nations or Hindu nations.

But I still take what Jesus the Sage said to heart, because I think he said profound things. And I still love the allegories in the story of Adam and Eve that might not be immediately obvious.

I think the Bible is a literary masterpiece.

I agree.

I don't believe God is limited by petty human concepts like "right" "wrong" "good" "evil" etc... none of the gods are. (I would expect) They are beyond our mortal minds.

But in order to do our best we have to use concepts such as right, wrong, good and evil. Of course God could be above our minds and I beleive that he is, but all we have is our minds.

And as I said, we have 100% control over what we do and choose.

You are wrong. Some of our actions can be heavily influenced by factors which are beyond our control - like feelings, world views, opinions. These actions are so heavily weighted and influenced to one side that we might as well call them involuntary. Any way like I said, this is not about whether belief is choice because even if it is, my point in the OP remains.

What you and Lindsey-loo are saying is that we all make our own educated guess about what the truth is and those who get it right get rewarded, whilst those who get it wrong are punished - regardless of their effort. Happening to be right or wrong is pure chance and a fair, just, loving God cannot punish or reward us based on chance - because once we have done our best, its all luck.

So you and Lindsey-loo have so far said that God will punish us and reward us for things which are beyond our control, you have already (rightly) said that this is horrible, yet you say that if you get unlucky and Christianity happens to be true, you wont hold it against God for punishing you?

One thing I would like to note here is that no one (outside of babies who don't have the capacity) has never done anything they inherently felt was wrong on some level. I don't care who you are. We've all done the small things at least... skirted around an issue, and felt slightly guilty for it... told a "white" lie... let certainly things slide when we saw another party being taken advantage of, etc. The point being, if there really were a God, and the requirement really were that you had to seek atonement for these "sins" through asking for forgiveness and believing (I am not at all saying this is the case, or that I believe anything remotely similar - this is just for the sake of argument), then you'd still have no case for your "but I lived life as a really good person to the best of my ability" little attempt at a free-pass/excuse.

In fact, if we were standing side by side in judgment before the "powers that be" (may they ever exist in unknowable obscurity), and you started whining about how good a person you were when they pointed you to the downward-leading staircase, I'd still be laughing my butt off even as I descended the stairs behind you.

Ok so you are accepting that it is absolutely fine for God to punish someone who did their best to not only be a good person, but to also find truth? Don't you think that a God like this is evil? What you are basically saying is that if God is evil, then trying your best will not be good enough. I already know this, but me and most Christians do not beleive that God is at all evil. The problem is that some Christians say that God is not evil, but he also gives eternal undeserved punishments - it does not fit.

 

[Riverwolf]

Hitler truly believed that his strategy was correct, but he also knew that it was evil. Are you saying that Hitler truly believed that he was not committing any evil or was doing anything wrong? I don't know much about Hitler but I doubt that this is true. But if Hitler did not at all know that he was doing anything wrong, then of course he should not be punished.

He didn't believe he was doing at first, I'd wager. Through most of his rule, he believed with all his heart that he was doing good. He chose to believe that non-aryans were subhuman and thus had no place in the new world order he wanted, and thus chose to systematically kill them all off.

Obviously he realized the error of his ways eventually, but instead of standing up and facing the consequences of his actions, he blew his brains out.

Ok, but you beleive that God is capable of doing very horrible things and very good things?

God is beyond such concepts.

Are you choosing to beleive that you are not above nature in any way? Are you choosing to believe that Jesus was not a messiah? Are you choosing to believe that God dictated the Torah to Moses? Like I said, if we are choosing then we are choosing because of factors which we cannot control. Religion is not just a simple choice. It is so largely influenced by factors that are beyond your control that you might as well say its not a choice at all. You think its just coincidence how the vast majority of religious people who live in Christian nations become Christians? The same is true for Muslim nations or Hindu nations.

As I said, I could convert to Christianity whenever I felt like it. I believe it's a beautiful religion that could be compatible with most of my values. But I said I don't believe in the above theological concepts. I don't believe them of my own volition. But with enough meditation, I could learn to accept those things that I currently don't believe.

I'd also like to say that I made up my current religion, which evolves every day.

But in order to do our best we have to use concepts such as right, wrong, good and evil. Of course God could be above our minds and I beleive that he is, but all we have is our minds.

And to reach God we have to be like it, by relinquishing concepts of "good" and "evil". Not to mention this increases responsibility to learn why things are done the way they are done.

We can't sit here all the time and whine about our best. Because humans are capable of more than we realize.

You are wrong. Some of our actions can be heavily influenced by factors which are beyond our control - like feelings, world views, opinions. These actions are so heavily weighted and influenced to one side that we might as well call them involuntary. Any way like I said, this is not about whether belief is choice because even if it is, my point in the OP remains.

All it takes is knowing why you feel something, and then you can control your feelings.

If you can see into your subconscious, you can learn how to control everything you think.

Ever gone to a therapy session? Learned a bit about the human psyche?

What you and Lindsey-loo are saying is that we all make our own educated guess about what the truth is and those who get it right get rewarded, whilst those who get it wrong are punished - regardless of their effort. Happening to be right or wrong is pure chance and a fair, just, loving God cannot punish or reward us based on chance - because once we have done our best, its all luck.

So you and Lindsey-loo have so far said that God will punish us and reward us for things which are beyond our control, you have already (rightly) said that this is horrible, yet you say that if you get unlucky and Christianity happens to be true, you wont hold it against God for punishing you?

What would be the point of holding a grudge? It's pointless to hold grudges against other mortals, let alone the gods.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Didn't you say that you believed a person who did their absolute best to find truth but did not become a Christian, would be punished? Are you honestly saying that a person who does their absolute best but fails, deserves to be punished?

Well it's obviously not their absolute best at all in God's eyes, because the Bible tells us he never gives us more than we can handle. First Corinthians 10:13 reads "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." According to this verse, we are capable of achieving spiritual victory in any situation. If I have tried to follow God, but failed in some way without attempting to correct my failure, then I am not giving my absolute best.

You should not speak for everyone, I do not choose to feel what the best way is. Are you saying that we have control over our feelings? If I feel something just is not right, then I am not going to go with it. It is not my choice for something to feel right and as a human I'm obviously going to go with what I feel to be right.

You can't control your feelings, but you can control your actions that are a result of your feelings. Hypotherically speaking, if you felt that it's right to kill a person, are you still going to do it? As humans, we are absolutely responsible for making the right choices despite our feelings.

How do you decide what is right and wrong?

I agree with everything you have said here except I am worried about the bold part. I can only assume that you don't understand what I mean when I say "feel right". If something feels right to you I mean that is the thing that you think is true, that is the thing that you are going to go with no matter what - because you feel its right. No sane person would go with what they feel is wrong.

If you are really turning your back on things that are more true to you, that you trust more and that you think is right, just to keep try and keep a current belief, then I think you are mentally ill. But don't worry, I don't actually think you are mentally ill, I just think that you misunderstood me when I said what "feel right".

Well, then call me crazy. :areyoucra Lol, I was actually talking more about individual hings than actual religions there. There's stuff I feel makes more sense than what's in God's word. For example, the Bible tells us that women are supposed to be silent in the church, and my congregation adheres to that. Personally, I feel that's totally bogus. I think I would make an excellent preacher or prayer leader. I have been tempted many times to go to churches with friends where women can speak in the assembly. But in the interest of remaining a Christian, I have turned from what I FEEL is right to what I KNOW is right, and that is what's in God's word. Regardless of how I feel about it.

Like I said I don't think I should go any further with this until we are sure what each other means by the term "feel right. I understand that if my beliefs were wrong then God would not want me to have them, but he certinley would not punish me in anyway for not changing if I believed I had got it.

Mmkay, I am talking about "feel right" in the context of religion and the context of individual actions. I might feel Daoism is right, but it's still not, I might feel women being able to speak in the church is right, but it's still not. God will punish you if you do not follow Him. That's the simplest way I know how to say it. People decide to become Christians all the time, going against their predispositions and beliefs. My grandmother's preacher baptized a man who had been a Muslim since the day he was born. People CAN and DO go against what they are predisposed to believe. Just throwing that out there.

But you have turned your back on it because you did not think that it was true. In order to do your best to find truth, you will have to turn your back on things that might be true. But the point is that you have done your best. Once you have done your best, whether or not you are right is pure chance. And God would not reward or punish us based on pure chance. The only thing that can possibly matter to a fair, just, loving God, is how hard we tried - not whether or not we got lucky.

It is not pure chance. It is the result of a concious decision. Here's the dealio. God gave us the Bible. You hear what's in the Bible. You do some research if you want to, in order to see that the Bible is infallible and true. Then if you turn your back on that, it's your problem. If one has the oppurtunity to become a Christian and they refused to, then they are going to Hell. The only thing that matters to God is that we worship Him and follow Him.

Which is why I believe that regardless of what conclusion you came to, all that matters to God is how hard you tried. The way you are saying things makes it sound like the ones who did not find the truth, are simply doomed from birth.

Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Luke 9:23

So I say to you, ask and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock and it will be opened after you.
Luke 11:9

For we walk by faith, not by sight.
2 Corinthians 5:7

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Hebrews 11:1, 3

If one seriously wants to be a Christian, then they will have little problem becoming/being one. God knows our hearts, and he knows what we need to have set before us in order to believe. However a Christian must also have faith or it defeats the point.

Also I say to you that whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:8-9

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:6

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousnesss, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly...then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment...
2 Peter 2:4-6, 9

I think it's pretty clear that God cares more than just how hard you tried to believe.

 

[Storm]

But in the interest of remaining a Christian, I have turned from what I FEEL is right to what I KNOW is right, and that is what's in God's word. Regardless of how I feel about it.
...

It is not pure chance. It is the result of a concious decision. Here's the dealio. God gave us the Bible. You hear what's in the Bible. You do some research if you want to, in order to see that the Bible is infallible and true. Then if you turn your back on that, it's your problem. If one has the oppurtunity to become a Christian and they refused to, then they are going to Hell. The only thing that matters to God is that we worship Him and follow Him.

...

I think it's pretty clear that God cares more than just how hard you tried to believe.

How do you know the Bible is God's word? Because it's "infallible?" It's not. It says pi = 3 and hares chew cud.

Do I need to repost Kissing Hank's *** [Butt]? Again?

 

[Father Heathen]

How do you know the Bible is God's word? Because it's "infallible?" It's not. It says pi = 3 and hares chew cud.

Do I need to repost Kissing Hank's *** [Butt]? Again?

Please do.

As for those of you who actually think the bible is the infallible word of god, and not some lame attempt by primitive bronze age goat herders to put words in his mouth, read this.

 

[Storm]

OK. Lovingly ripped off yet again from Jhuger.com:
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's butt with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His butt?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's butt, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His butt."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the butt?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's butt with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's butt often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the snot out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's butt, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's butt for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's butt He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss His butt?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His butt. Other times we kiss Karl's butt, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's butt. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His butt, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
From the Desk of Karl

1. Kiss Hank's butt and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the snot out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't use alcohol.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's butt or He'll kick the snot out of you.

Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the snot out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's butt for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

 

[HoldemDB9]

He didn't believe he was doing at first, I'd wager. Through most of his rule, he believed with all his heart that he was doing good. He chose to believe that non-aryans were subhuman and thus had no place in the new world order he wanted, and thus chose to systematically kill them all off.

Obviously he realized the error of his ways eventually, but instead of standing up and facing the consequences of his actions, he blew his brains out.

He knew that the consequences were there. He knew that what he was doing was evil, immoral and wrong. I do not know that the consequences of not following Christianity are real and I do not know that it is in any way a negative thing to not follow the rules of Christianity. You cannot be punished fairly if you did not know that the rules were actually there.

God is beyond such concepts.

You said it yourself that if God punished us for things beyond our control, he is doing a horrible thing.

As I said, I could convert to Christianity whenever I felt like it. I believe it's a beautiful religion that could be compatible with most of my values. But I said I don't believe in the above theological concepts. I don't believe them of my own volition. But with enough meditation, I could learn to accept those things that I currently don't believe.

And could you become an Atheist is you whenever you wanted to? You are obviously closer to Christianity than most non-Christians. It is not your fault that Christianity does not feel like the right path for you to follow and you cannot be punished for choosing the way that you feel is right.

We can't sit here all the time and whine about our best. Because humans are capable of more than we realize.

And if we don't realize it, then its not our fault.

What would be the point of holding a grudge? It's pointless to hold grudges against other mortals, let alone the gods.

What exactly do you mean? I've clearly pointed out what you a Lindsey-loo said in this thread, yet you are both still denying it.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Well it's obviously not their absolute best at all in God's eyes, because the Bible tells us he never gives us more than we can handle. First Corinthians 10:13 reads "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." According to this verse, we are capable of achieving spiritual victory in any situation. If I have tried to follow God, but failed in some way without attempting to correct my failure, then I am not giving my absolute best.

Ok so what you are saying is that there is no such thing as someone who has tried their best, but has come to the conclusion that Christianity is false. That is one of the most ignorant and disgusting things Ive heard. You cannot attempt to correct a failure that you do not know is there and that you do not believe is there. There are plenty of people who have tried harder than most Christians to find truth and to even become a Christian, but you are saying that the ones who tried less but got it right get the reward. In other words, the ones who involuntarily got lucky, get the reward. Im so glad the vast majority of Christians dont believe these things. This is the type of stuff that stopped me from becoming Christian every time I tried. But of course to you, Im just choosing, I guess you just think Im lying when I say Im not.

You can't control your feelings, but you can control your actions that are a result of your feelings. Hypotherically speaking, if you felt that it's right to kill a person, are you still going to do it?

Like I said I obviously did not explain myself well enough when I said that I would do what I felt was right. What I mean is that if I took every thing into consideration, tried my best to work it out - whatever that conclusion is, is the one that I will follow. I am talking about the overall decision, what overall feels right to you. So of course, if I felt it was right for me to kill a person, I would - otherwise I would be doing something which I felt was the wrong thing to do. Understand what I mean now?

As humans, we are absolutely responsible for making the right choices despite our feelings.

Only if we know what the rules/consequences are.

Well, then call me crazy. Lol, I was actually talking more about individual hings than actual religions there. There's stuff I feel makes more sense than what's in God's word. For example, the Bible tells us that women are supposed to be silent in the church, and my congregation adheres to that. Personally, I feel that's totally bogus. I think I would make an excellent preacher or prayer leader. I have been tempted many times to go to churches with friends where women can speak in the assembly. But in the interest of remaining a Christian, I have turned from what I FEEL is right to what I KNOW is right, and that is what's in God's word. Regardless of how I feel about it.

First of all you dont know what is right. But this is what I mean about going with what we feel is right. You are overall going with Christianity here, even though you disagree with this part of it, because Christianity is what you truly feel is right. That is why you are going with it. So I think you should know what I mean now. Its just that when I say you go with what you feel is right, you say you go with what you know is right. But you dont actually KNOW that you are right.

It is not pure chance. It is the result of a concious decision. Here's the dealio. God gave us the Bible. You hear what's in the Bible. You do some research if you want to, in order to see that the Bible is infallible and true. Then if you turn your back on that, it's your problem. If one has the oppurtunity to become a Christian and they refused to, then they are going to Hell. The only thing that matters to God is that we worship Him and follow Him.

If you have done your best, whether or not you happen to be right is pure chance. Obviously you can try to increase your chances of being right, which is what everyone searching for truth does, but once your time is up, whether or not you are right is nothing but sheer luck. If you are searching for truth, then every sane person would turn their back on anything that they did not think was true - I do not think that the Bible is true. So if Christianity is true, one could say that I have made a mistake - But I have not, really. If it is my fault then it is definitely not a punish worthy fault - since I did all that I could possibly do.

Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Luke 9:23

So I say to you, ask and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock and it will be opened after you.
Luke 11:9

For we walk by faith, not by sight.
2 Corinthians 5:7

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Hebrews 11:1, 3

If one seriously wants to be a Christian, then they will have little problem becoming/being one. God knows our hearts, and he knows what we need to have set before us in order to believe. However a Christian must also have faith or it defeats the point.

Well at many points in my life I really wanted to become a Christian, but I could not, so your comment definitely does not apply to everyone. Also you said that if someone "wanted" to become a Christian. Has it never occurred to you that practically all non-Christians do not want to be Christians? If you do not want to become a Christian then obviously you are not going to try and become one. It is not our fault that we do not want to become a Christian.

I think it's pretty clear that God cares more than just how hard you tried to believe

Which is what I find absolutely vile about Christianity, because all we can possibly ever give, is our best, yet some people say that giving our best is not good enough and at the same time God is not evil. At least almost all Christians I've ever talked to, don't believe this though. You are saying that God punishes people undeservedly and I think most would agree that this is evil.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Ok so what you are saying is that there is no such thing as someone who has tried their best, but has come to the conclusion that Christianity is false. That is one of the most ignorant and disgusting things Ive heard. You cannot attempt to correct a failure that you do not know is there and that you do not believe is there. There are plenty of people who have tried harder than most Christians to find truth and to even become a Christian, but you are saying that the ones who tried less but got it right get the reward. In other words, the ones who involuntarily got lucky, get the reward. Im so glad the vast majority of Christians dont believe these things. This is the type of stuff that stopped me from becoming Christian every time I tried. But of course to you, Im just choosing, I guess you just think Im lying when I say Im not.

Which is exactly why the first thing you have to do is believe. Which takes faith. You either choose to have faith in God or you don't. I mean, I guess some people can rationalize it. I was one of those, but I know people who have had to build their religion more on faith than fact. And I'm not saying you're lying, I'm telling you I disagree.

Like I said I obviously did not explain myself well enough when I said that I would do what I felt was right. What I mean is that if I took every thing into consideration, tried my best to work it out - whatever that conclusion is, is the one that I will follow. I am talking about the overall decision, what overall feels right to you. So of course, if I felt it was right for me to kill a person, I would - otherwise I would be doing something which I felt was the wrong thing to do. Understand what I mean now?

Right, and you are responsible for making the right conclusion. God provides the oppurtunities, and what you make of them is up to you. I believe that if a person really wants to be a Christian, they will put aside their doubts, their previous "conclusions". That's kind of the whole point. I'm not saying it's easy, it's anything but. However, I would say that a person who can't bring themselves to do that doesn't want to be a Christian anyway.

I find it fairly disgusting that you would kill a person just because you feel like it's the right thing to do. Would you not agree that taking a life is inherently wrong, regardless of how an individual feels about it?

And why do you suppose our judicial system punishes murderers, if they actually can't help what they did? Afterall, being 'wrong' was beyond the murderer's control.

Though I can't help but wonder how you define right and wrong. Do you believe in right and wrong, and if so, what do you base it off of?

Only if we know what the rules/consequences are.

The Holy Bible. It's all in there.

First of all you dont know what is right. But this is what I mean about going with what we feel is right. You are overall going with Christianity here, even though you disagree with this part of it, because Christianity is what you truly feel is right. That is why you are going with it. So I think you should know what I mean now. Its just that when I say you go with what you feel is right, you say you go with what you know is right. But you dont actually KNOW that you are right.

I do know what is right, but it's probably pointless to discuss it because I doubt we will reach a consensus. And yes, overall I'm ignoring what I personally think is right because I believe Christianity is truly right, however, I am proving it can be done. You CAN choose not to stick with what you have previously concluded.

If you have done your best, whether or not you happen to be right is pure chance. Obviously you can try to increase your chances of being right, which is what everyone searching for truth does, but once your time is up, whether or not you are right is nothing but sheer luck. If you are searching for truth, then every sane person would turn their back on anything that they did not think was true - I do not think that the Bible is true. So if Christianity is true, one could say that I have made a mistake - But I have not, really. If it is my fault then it is definitely not a punish worthy fault - since I did all that I could possibly do.

Your life and afterlife is not up to chance. I strongly believe that we control our own destinies. One who searches hard enough for the truth finds the truth. If you had done all you could possibly do to be a Christian, then you would be one. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. God punishes our mistakes unless we correct them. If you want to call that evil, that's your prerogative.

Well at many points in my life I really wanted to become a Christian, but I could not, so your comment definitely does not apply to everyone. Also you said that if someone "wanted" to become a Christian. Has it never occurred to you that practically all non-Christians do not want to be Christians? If you do not want to become a Christian then obviously you are not going to try and become one. It is not our fault that we do not want to become a Christian.

Exactly, but I disagree with the last part, if you don't want to be a Christian--that's your fault. That's the whole point. God seperates the people who want to follow Him from the ones who don't. If you want to follow Him, you are able to. Seek and ye shall find. If you don't want to follow Him, then you have rejected Him, and you are punished.

Which is what I find absolutely vile about Christianity, because all we can possibly ever give, is our best, yet some people say that giving our best is not good enough and at the same time God is not evil. At least almost all Christians I've ever talked to, don't believe this though. You are saying that God punishes people undeservedly and I think most would agree that this is evil.

God punishes people who don't want to follow him. End of story.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Which is exactly why the first thing you have to do is believe. Which takes faith. You either choose to have faith in God or you don't. I mean, I guess some people can rationalize it. I was one of those, but I know people who have had to build their religion more on faith than fact.

What exactly does faith mean to you? I certinley hope that God exists, I want him to exist. I also do not have a belief or non-belief in God. Would you choose to have faith in something that you did not beleive was right/true? How can we be punished for choosing to not have faith in something that we truly felt was not right?

And I'm not saying you're lying, I'm telling you I disagree.

If you don't think I'm lying, then you think I'm telling the truth - you cant have both.

Right, and you are responsible for making the right conclusion. God provides the oppurtunities, and what you make of them is up to you. I believe that if a person really wants to be a Christian, they will put aside their doubts, their previous "conclusions". That's kind of the whole point. I'm not saying it's easy, it's anything but. However, I would say that a person who can't bring themselves to do that doesn't want to be a Christian anyway.

Like I said before, all we can do is our best. If we do our best, but we do not come to the right conclusion, then we cannot be punished. Again you are saying that all non-Christians should go against what they truly feel is right - that would be a ridiculous thing for any sane person to do.

I find it fairly disgusting that you would kill a person just because you feel like it's the right thing to do. Would you not agree that taking a life is inherently wrong, regardless of how an individual feels about it?

Yes I agree that taking a life is wrong, but sometimes it is right to do wrong things. If you truly felt it was right to kill someone, then you would do it - otherwise you would not truly think that it is right. Taking it to an extreme, would you kill a bad person in order to save your whole family?

And why do you suppose our judicial system punishes murderers, if they actually can't help what they did? Afterall, being 'wrong' was beyond the murderer's control.

No it was not, they were perfectly in control. They knew what the rules and consequences were. They knew that they were doing something wrong. By not following Christianity, I do not know that I am doing something wrong.

Though I can't help but wonder how you define right and wrong. Do you believe in right and wrong, and if so, what do you base it off of?

Of course I believe in right and wrong. How do I define it? Well that could be a topic for another thread, but not this one, as it would probably be a lengthy topic in itself. Off the top of my head I would say common sense.

The Holy Bible. It's all in there.

But I do not know that the consequences are real. I do not know that they actually exist, and I don't beleive that they do. We cannot be punished if we did not know what the rules were. We cannot be given consequences that we did not know existed.

I do know what is right, but it's probably pointless to discuss it because I doubt we will reach a consensus. And yes, overall I'm ignoring what I personally think is right because I believe Christianity is truly right, however, I am proving it can be done. You CAN choose not to stick with what you have previously concluded.

This is EXACTLEY what I mean when I used the term "felt right". You just call it what you "truly beleive is right". Do you now understand that I truly think that I am right when I say that Christianity is false? No sane person would ever go against what they truly felt was right. I'm sure you would not stop being a Christian any time soon. Why? Because you truly feel that it is right. And I truly feel that it is right for me to not try and become a Christian.

Your life and afterlife is not up to chance.

Yes it is. All you can do is try to be right and after that, its nothing but sheer chance.

I strongly believe that we control our own destinies. One who searches hard enough for the truth finds the truth.

This is absolutely insane. Are you honestly saying that all who aren't Christian did not try hard enough to find truth? Just think of all the non-Christians who are on this forum in comparison to all of the gullible Christians who believed almost as soon as they heard about Christianity. Do you honestly believe that the harder someone tries to find truth, the closer they will come to Christianity?!!!!

If you had done all you could possibly do to be a Christian, then you would be one. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

This could be said about every belief, it does not mean that we can be punished for not becoming a Christian, just because Christianity happened to be true. Do you think God would be happy with me if I went to a hypnotist and told him to make me a Christian?

God punishes our mistakes unless we correct them. If you want to call that evil, that's your prerogative.

You cannot possibly correct a mistake if you do not beleive or know that it is there. I think everyone would agree that a God who held us accountable for not fixing mistakes that we did not know existed, is evil. You've just said it again that you beleive God will punish us for things beyond our control.

Exactly, but I disagree with the last part, if you don't want to be a Christian--that's your fault. That's the whole point. God seperates the people who want to follow Him from the ones who don't. If you want to follow Him, you are able to. Seek and ye shall find. If you don't want to follow Him, then you have rejected Him, and you are punished.

It is not my choice that I do not want to be a Christian.

God punishes people who don't want to follow him. End of story.

In other words God punished us for going with what we truly felt was right. Imagine that another God exists and he says to you when you die that you are going to be punished because you went with what you truly felt was right. Are you saying that this God is not doing an evil thing?

 

[DarkSun]

He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

That seems fairly self-explanatory to me.

James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? . . . Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Romans 2:14-16 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

God punishes and rewards based on whether or not one follows his Word.

I do not presume to know how God judges, but I think that if a person who (through no fault of their own) has come to show disbelief in Him, but is still able to follow Christ's example through compassion, mercy and forgiveness, then that person has more chance of gaining entrance to Heaven than a Christian who displays a lack of these qualities.

I find it perfectly reasonable that God would set down certain rules for his followers to follow. If you can't follow the statutes He's set down, then you can't be rewarded.

Or definitions of evil may differ, but I don't think it's purely and utterly evil for God to ask us to maintain our faith and follow his commands in order to enter eternal life with Him.

People cannot help what they come to believe. To condemn someone for something they have no control over is the greatest evil imaginable; and to claim that perhaps God cannot help those who have no faith is to limit His power. Which attribute are you giving to God?

 

[Mister Emu]

If you don't think I'm lying, then you think I'm telling the truth - you cant have both.

You've already had this conversation

 

[Riverwolf]

He knew that the consequences were there. He knew that what he was doing was evil, immoral and wrong. I do not know that the consequences of not following Christianity are real and I do not know that it is in any way a negative thing to not follow the rules of Christianity. You cannot be punished fairly if you did not know that the rules were actually there.

Then why did he do what he did?

And could you become an Atheist is you whenever you wanted to? You are obviously closer to Christianity than most non-Christians. It is not your fault that Christianity does not feel like the right path for you to follow and you cannot be punished for choosing the way that you feel is right.

Yes, I could become an atheist if I so chose. I don't because I think it's perfectly conceivable that there are beings that are beyond our comprehension, as there are beings that do not comprehend us. I just attach the term "god" to such beings.

And if we don't realize it, then its not our fault.

And how can you justify not realizing something if you've read the rules? If you haven't read the rules, then you're okay. If you HAVE read the rules, then you aren't justified UNLESS you have a darned good REASON for disagreeing.

I disagree with Paul's version of Christianity. I don't call Paul or what he taught evil.

What exactly do you mean? I've clearly pointed out what you a Lindsey-loo said in this thread, yet you are both still denying it.

I don't hold a grudge against God because there'd be no point. Is that so hard a concept to grasp?

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

What exactly does faith mean to you? I certinley hope that God exists, I want him to exist. I also do not have a belief or non-belief in God. Would you choose to have faith in something that you did not beleive was right/true? How can we be punished for choosing to not have faith in something that we truly felt was not right?

My basic definition of faith would be belief in something or someone you cannot see, hear, or feel. We have faith in that which we do not know is true, or cannot fully understand. If one doesn't feel that Christianity is right, they do not want to be a Christian. I think we have established that. If one does not want to be a Christian, then they are not in God's flock, and therefore will not join Him in eternal life.

If you don't think I'm lying, then you think I'm telling the truth - you cant have both.

I don't think you're lying or telling the truth. I think you're mistaken in what you believe is the truth. But just because I have the incorrect answer for something doesn't make me a liar. It would just make me wrong.

Like I said before, all we can do is our best. If we do our best, but we do not come to the right conclusion, then we cannot be punished. Again you are saying that all non-Christians should go against what they truly feel is right - that would be a ridiculous thing for any sane person to do.

If one is doing their best to be a Christian, then they will be a Christian. I'm growing tired of repeating myself. This seems so obvious to me. If one is not doing their best to be a Christian, then they won't be one and they are deserving of seperation from God. That is the bottom line. If one does their best to find the truth, but reaches an incorrect conclusion, they are still deserving of seperation from God. I believe God gives each of ample oppurtunity to follow Him. So why is it that some people can find His truth and others cannot? Do you truly believe that if you go against God your entire life you deserve to be rewarded for that?

Yes I agree that taking a life is wrong, but sometimes it is right to do wrong things. If you truly felt it was right to kill someone, then you would do it - otherwise you would not truly think that it is right. Taking it to an extreme, would you kill a bad person in order to save your whole family?

It is never right to do a wrong thing. I wouldn't kill a bad person to save my whole family if they were not threatening my family, but for the sake of the argument I'll provide an example that works.

If a guy broke into my house with a gun and threatened to kill my family, I would kill him if I had the oppurtunity. That still isn't right. That's me choosing to do a wrong thing.

No it was not, they were perfectly in control. They knew what the rules and consequences were. They knew that they were doing something wrong. By not following Christianity, I do not know that I am doing something wrong.

But it was right to them. They just reached a different conclusion from our lawmakers and judicial system, just like people often reach a different conclusion from God's system.

Should the murderer go unpunished? Is our judicial system evil if they put him in jail?

Of course I believe in right and wrong. How do I define it? Well that could be a topic for another thread, but not this one, as it would probably be a lengthy topic in itself. Off the top of my head I would say common sense.

...Common sense...? Well, what exactly is common sense and does everyone have it?

But I do not know that the consequences are real. I do not know that they actually exist, and I don't beleive that they do. We cannot be punished if we did not know what the rules were. We cannot be given consequences that we did not know existed.

But you know the rules and consequences are there, you just don't follow them.

This is EXACTLEY what I mean when I used the term "felt right". You just call it what you "truly beleive is right". Do you now understand that I truly think that I am right when I say that Christianity is false? No sane person would ever go against what they truly felt was right. I'm sure you would not stop being a Christian any time soon. Why? Because you truly feel that it is right. And I truly feel that it is right for me to not try and become a Christian.

You are aware that many Christians stop being Christians? Because they have decided to change their views. So while I personally wouldn't stop being a Christian anytime soon, others can and do.

Yes it is. All you can do is try to be right and after that, its nothing but sheer chance.

All you can do is find or not find the truth.

This is absolutely insane. Are you honestly saying that all who aren't Christian did not try hard enough to find truth? Just think of all the non-Christians who are on this forum in comparison to all of the gullible Christians who believed almost as soon as they heard about Christianity. Do you honestly believe that the harder someone tries to find truth, the closer they will come to Christianity?!!!!

Duh. If I didn't believe that the harder you look for the truth, the more obvious Christianity becomes, why ever would I be a Christian? I'm saying that I believe all who aren't Christians don't want to be Christians (obviously) and therefore refuse to see the truth where it exists. And please don't diss Christians who converted as soon as they heard. It takes an enormous leap of faith, I could never do that, and I deeply respect them.

This could be said about every belief, it does not mean that we can be punished for not becoming a Christian, just because Christianity happened to be true. Do you think God would be happy with me if I went to a hypnotist and told him to make me a Christian?

Absolutely. If I try hard enough to become a Muslim, I could become one. And you can be punished for not being a Christian if it happens to be true. That's in the Bible. I'm pretty sure God wouldn't want you to go to a hypnotist in order to become a Christian, because He wants you to come to Him of your own choice and free will.

You cannot possibly correct a mistake if you do not beleive or know that it is there. I think everyone would agree that a God who held us accountable for not fixing mistakes that we did not know existed, is evil. You've just said it again that you beleive God will punish us for things beyond our control.

Right, which is why you must first believe it is there. I agree, a god who would punish someone never even exposed to Christianity would be evil. But that's not the case with the vast majority of people in our world these days. Once again, I've NEVER said God would punish us for things beyond our control.

It is not my choice that I do not want to be a Christian.

Then I'm deeply sorry you are incapable of controling your fate.

In other words God punished us for going with what we truly felt was right. Imagine that another God exists and he says to you when you die that you are going to be punished because you went with what you truly felt was right. Are you saying that this God is not doing an evil thing?

DING-DING-DING! Now you've got it! If what you truly feel is right, is wrong in God's sight, then he punishes you for that. And no, it's not evil, just like our judicial system is not evil for sending someone who breaks the law (even though they truly felt their actions were right) to jail.

 

[Riverwolf]

If you don't think I'm lying, then you think I'm telling the truth - you cant have both.

Lying implies intentional speaking of untruth.

You have made it very clear that you believe every word you say. Therefore you are not lying.

But what you believe to be true is not what another believes is true.