Question about jesus.

[firedragon]

Don't have time to write a book, but some examples are that the Magi brought gifts to the house his family lived in, Joseph was a builder, one of the respected trades 'pure' Jews could engage in, Nazareth was a prosperous town near a major Roman resort, hence he was likely employed a lot, a member of the middle class able to support a large family, and take them on his travels to the Passover Feast in Jerusalem, indicating a fair amount of wealth, since only the adult male was required to attend from any Jewish family, a considerable expense poor people wouldn't be able to afford. The 'born in a manger' thing is overblown; the population of the city and nearby towns ballooned to 6 times its normal population during these Passover festivals, and they trued an inn first, it was full. Poor people didn't have their own houses.

Other examples are he took expensive gifts from followers, like perfumes and food from his female followers like Mary, and had several wealthy friends, who put him and his Apostles up and fed them well. His poverty was self-imposed, when he turned 33 he was legally old enough to call himself a teacher and rabbi under Jewish traditions and no longer practiced his trade as a carpenter and became a wandering preacher.

outside of the caveats re having to stay in a manger during a very busy festival season, this article comes closest to pointing out he wasn't raised in poverty, most likely had a middle class upbringing.

Was Jesus Rich or Poor -- and Why Does It Matter? | Intersect

There are probably better sources out there, i just don't have time to go through many.

Where in the Bible does it say that Joseph was a "builder, which is a respected trades 'pure' Jews could engage in"?

 

[Oberon12]

Where in the Bible does it say that Joseph was a "builder, which is a respected trades 'pure' Jews could engage in"?

Carpenters were construction workers for the most part, and if you want a very detailed and footnoted history and economic and social study of Jerusalem and Jewish culture there get a copy of Joachim Jeremia's Jerusalem In The Time of Jesus.

Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus by Joachim Jeremias



Although Jeremias was an academic, and uses documentary footnotes and the standard scholarly abbreviations for sources (there's a list of these in the introductory matter), the vocabulary level is that of the average intelligent layman. (He uses big words in places, but not jargon.) The book itself is not extremely long, with just 376 pages of actual text (the rest of the 405 pages are mostly indexes of subjects/names and of references to ancient writings, as well as lists of the high priests fr0m 200 BC to 70 AD and of the scribes known to have been active in Jerusalem in this era). But a great deal of solid (and to me highly interesting!) factual information is packed into this, dealing with economic conditions in that day, the various trades and industries, the religious institutions (including the priests and the scribes), the social classes and their relations, the relations of Jews with Samaritans and Gentiles, the concern with racial purity which in Jeremias' words "dominated" the society, the social position of women, etc. (Much of what is written here about Jerusalem can also be extrapolated to the rest of Palestine as well.) Source material from which the information is drawn includes the Talmud and related writings (which were written in the centuries following the destruction of Jerusalem, but which faithfully preserve handed-down oral material from the first century and before), primary or other ancient sources such as Josephus and Roman records, and archaeological evidence. (There's no bibliography, but the footnotes cite a substantial body of material.)

In some places where Jeremias offers an opinion on New Testament texts, I disagree with him. For instance, he argues (in a footnote) that the words "except for marital unfaithfulness" in Matthew 5:32 are an "interpolation," based on its absence from the Synoptic parallels. But there is no actual textual evidence for any manuscript of Matthew's Gospel without those words; and I would maintain that there is no reason to doubt that they were in the original text (IMO, they are easily explained as the author's paraphrase of Jesus' words, to make explicit a qualification which was only implicit in the original). But minor quibbles of this sort don't detract from the substantive value of the book.

Although I haven't reviewed it, another work which also concentrates on providing similar background material is Daily Life in the Time of Jesus (1959) by the French Roman Catholic historian Henri Daniel-Rops, who traveled extensively in the Middle East. The latter work is more "popular level" in its treatment than Jeremias' is, but the two books can supplement each other very well; and I highly recommend either or both of them. (less)
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It uses and cites an immense number of sources contemporary with the times, not just the NT, and will also help explain many references in the NT that would confuse modern readers as well. A great addition and resource for any library.

 

[firedragon]

Carpenters were construction workers

It doesnt say carpenter in the first place. So if this is the foundation, the error begins there.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If Jesus lived in poverty.How did he wash his clothes?Or take baths or showers?

Rivers (Jordan and others), streams, ponds, whatever and wherever public facilities were available. At places of his followers, I suppose.
As there is no information about where he was in the unexplained period, perhaps Joseph was somewhere in Israel or at any other place engaged in whatever profession he had. At that time, Jesus must have had a home.

 

[metis]

They were weapons, not useful for anything else.

That's not true, as fishermen, for example, used them to mend their nets.

I used to carry a Swiss Army Knife around for many years, not because it's a weapon, although it could be used for that, but because it's useful for other tasks. My son, who's a cement contractor, carries a much larger knife around both when in and out at work, and it's really not mainly for protection-- he's got a gun for that.

He also had to know Peter and couple of others were carrying them; they had at least three among their possessions.

Let me repeat: what did Jesus say to Peter?

The question about Jesus' possible pacifism is basically unanswerable because there's not enough info within the scriptures themselves. Not knowing the answer, this was argued within the 2nd century Church and beyond. Eventually the Church settled on the "Just War Theory": Just war theory - Wikipedia

However, much later some of what are now called the "peace churches" said no to that, thus feeling that the Church compromised too much.

 

[metis]

Carpenters were construction workers for the most part, and if you want a very detailed and footnoted history and economic and social study of Jerusalem and Jewish culture there get a copy of Joachim Jeremia's Jerusalem In The Time of Jesus.

Jesus is believed by most theologians to have resided in the Galilee area, most likely Nazareth, especially because a tad further west along the coast there was much construction going on. Jerusalem would have been quite a walk from there, needless to say, and Jesus got the name "Jesus of Nazareth" undoubtedly for that reason ["Yeshua" was a common name back then, so one at times had to designate whom either his father was by name or which village he was from]. He's also sometimes referred to as being a "Galilean".

 

[metis]

It doesnt say carpenter in the first place. So if this is the foundation, the error begins there.

Ya, but chances are pretty high that he was, maybe assisting his father and also to learn the trade.

 

[firedragon]

Ya, but chances are pretty high that he was, maybe assisting his father and also to learn the trade.

Chances are higher that the Bible actually says what it actually says. So there is lesser chances that what it says is not what it says. Hope you understand.

 

[metis]

Chances are higher that the Bible actually says what it actually says. So there is lesser chances that what it says is not what it says. Hope you understand.

But it doesn't say conclusively one way or the other on this, so I hope you understand.

 

[Oberon12]

Jesus is believed by most theologians to have resided in the Galilee area, most likely Nazareth, especially because a tad further west along the coast there was much construction going on. Jerusalem would have been quite a walk from there, needless to say, and Jesus got the name "Jesus of Nazareth" undoubtedly for that reason ["Yeshua" was a common name back then, so one at times had to designate whom either his father was by name or which village he was from]. He's also sometimes referred to as being a "Galilean".

Yes, and Nazareth was close to a popular Roman resort as well, hence it is likely Joseph was gainfully employed, since Romans. Carpenters were not a poverty occupation by the standards of those days. All good points.

 

[Oberon12]

That's not true, as fishermen, for example, used them to mend their nets.

I used to carry a Swiss Army Knife around for many years, not because it's a weapon, although it could be used for that, but because it's useful for other tasks. My son, who's a cement contractor, carries a much larger knife around both when in and out at work, and it's really not mainly for protection-- he's got a gun for that.

Let me repeat: what did Jesus say to Peter?

The question about Jesus' possible pacifism is basically unanswerable because there's not enough info within the scriptures themselves. Not knowing the answer, this was argued within the 2nd century Church and beyond. Eventually the Church settled on the "Just War Theory": Just war theory - Wikipedia

However, much later some of what are now called the "peace churches" said no to that, thus feeling that the Church compromised too much.

None of the apostles nor Jesus mentions them in that context. And again, Jesus did not instruct them to leave them at home, obviously, in that instance.

 

[firedragon]

But it doesn't say conclusively one way or the other on this, so I hope you understand.

Alright. So how is it higher probability that he was a carpenter if 'as you say' it doesnt say anything conclusively?

 

[Oberon12]

Ya, but chances are pretty high that he was, maybe assisting his father and also to learn the trade.

I'll go with Mathew 13:55, and the numerous analogies Jesus made using building metaphors as sufficient evidence. While stone was the prevalent available building material, they needed carpenters for all kinds of related work in stonemasonry.

 

[firedragon]

Ya, but chances are pretty high that he was, maybe assisting his father and also to learn the trade.

I think Metis you think Joseph was a carpenter according to the Bible. But see, it doesnt say so.

 

[metis]

None of the apostles nor Jesus mentions them in that context. And again, Jesus did not instruct them to leave them at home, obviously, in that instance.

It mentions that they were mending their nets at one point, which would have involved using a knife. But I don't discount that men back then would often carry them for defensive reasons as well. But, again, what was Jesus' reaction to Peter's action of cutting off an ear when in the Garden?

BTW, when in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, I saw two of these "swords", although I can't remember the dating on them.

 

[metis]

I think Metis you think Joseph was a carpenter according to the Bible. But see, it doesnt say so.

So, are we to assume he was unemployed for decades because nothing is said about his work?

Most sons back then went into their father's profession because they had a "local" and "cheap" teacher. And we know that jobs in that field would be open and would generally pay at least fairly well from Roman money because of Herod's projects. However, I didn't state it as a fact if you check back.

 

[firedragon]

So, are we to assume he was unemployed for decades because nothing is said about his work?

No. I didnt say any thing of the sort. Anyway, every one practically knows that Jesus is said to be a tektwn and is also called Jesus the son of the tektwn. I know that many have thought it means carpenter but it is very well known that its an assumption based on nothing, but it means a craftsman in short.

I don't know why you think nothing said about his work really. There is no need to make any assumptions at all.

 

[metis]

Yes, and Nazareth was close to a popular Roman resort as well,

I assume you are referring to his palace in Tiberius.

What's sorta funny is that Capernaum was very much a religious area [Peter's house and the nearby synagogue that's mentioned is there-- I saw both], but when I went over to Tiberius, the polar opposite is true, namely quite hedonistic, to say the least. Of course, I covered my eyes-- almost.

 

[metis]

I don't know why you think nothing said about his work really. There is no need to make any assumptions at all.

I didn't make any "assumption", so you're totally barking up the wrong tree!

 

[firedragon]

I didn't make any "assumption", so you're totally barking up the wrong tree!

I didnt say you did. You told me "So, are we to assume he was unemployed for decades because nothing is said about his work?".

There no need to get so angry metis.

Have a great day.