Question for all - what happens after death...

[Hockeycowboy]

Yes, both atheists and theists have the same fate after they die.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 says:


“Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening.”
Douay-Rheims Bible (a Catholic
translation)

This was written for everyone; “thou” (you) applies to everyone reading it.

IOW, the Bible says everyone goes to Sheol / Hell.

 

[Echogem222]

I believe we all go to a spiritual world, which is not a place but rather another dimension.
I believe we will all be devoid of suffering in the afterlife, and we will no longer have all the problems of this life, since it is the physical world that causes these problems.

Other than that, I believe there is such a thing as the suffering of the soul, psychic suffering, that some people may experience.

What is suffering of the soul?

 

[Trailblazer]

What is suffering of the soul?

It is psychic suffering, mental torment, and it is the soul that experiences this, not the physical body, since the soul is responsible for consciousness.
There will be no physical bodies in the afterlife, the soul will be associated with another kind of form, a spiritual body.

 

[Echogem222]

It is psychic suffering, mental torment, and it is the soul that experiences this, not the physical body, since the soul is responsible for consciousness.
There will be no physical bodies in the afterlife, the soul will be associated with another kind of form, a spiritual body.

I see, we have different views on what the soul is. I understand the soul as being our core self, which is just us being an individual, in other words, not someone else. The body, mind, memories, ego, etc. are not truly us, but just our "personal belongings". With this being the case, death has no reason to be our end.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see, we have different views on what the soul is. I understand the soul as being our core self, which is just us being an individual, in other words, not someone else.

That is also my understanding. The soul is the person, including all of the personality that person has acquired while living on earth.

The body, mind, memories, ego, etc. are not truly us, but just our "personal belongings". With this being the case, death has no reason to be our end.

Those are part of 'us' while we are living in the physical world, but after the body dies consciousness continues, and that is why death is not the end of consciousness. I believe we will remember our life in this world, at least as long as it takes for a life review, but I don't know what will happen after that.

 

[Echogem222]

That is also my understanding. The soul is the person, including all of the personality that person has acquired while living on earth.

Those are part of 'us' while we are living in the physical world, but after the body dies consciousness continues, and that is why death is not the end of consciousness. I believe we will remember our life in this world, at least as long as it takes for a life review, but I don't know what will happen after that.

No, you're misunderstanding what my view is, the soul is not a person's personality or anything else we gained after being born, we are just individuals, in other words, not someone else (consciousness has nothing to do with our true self, consciousness is just being aware that we exist). Once we die, our consciousness stops until we gain a new means to remain aware of ourselves, likely a new body/mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you're misunderstanding what my view is, the soul is not a person's personality or anything else we gained after being born, we are just individuals, in other words, not someone else (consciousness has nothing to do with our true self, consciousness is just being aware that we exist). Once we die, our consciousness stops until we gain a new means to remain aware of ourselves, likely a new body/mind.

But in your view, how did we become individuals?
If we did not become distinct individuals after being born by developing a personality, then how did we become distinct individuals?

What do you think allows us to be consciously aware of ourselves?
I believe that in this life our conscious awareness comes through our brain and mind which is animated by the soul.

I believe that once we die, our consciousness through the brain stops until we gain a new means to remain aware of ourselves, a new body, but I believe it is the same soul that was once associated with our physical body when we were alive.

 

[Echogem222]

But in your view, how did we become individuals?
If we did not become distinct individuals after being born by developing a personality, then how did we become distinct individuals?

What do you think allows us to be consciously aware of ourselves?
I believe that in this life our conscious awareness comes through our brain and mind which is animated by the soul.

I believe that once we die, our consciousness through the brain stops until we gain a new means to remain aware of ourselves, a new body, but I believe it is the same soul that was once associated with our physical body when we were alive.

In my religion there exists a greater than reality, which is where everything within reality came to be. I believe that we were once a part of what is greater than reality, but we were removed, and reformed within reality which was also created by removing it from greater than reality and reforming it. This is why I believe the main point of life is to be an individual, and why it seems likely that after death we'll continue to be individuals, just in a more ideal situation (an afterlife devoid of suffering).

It's our bodies/minds that allow us to be consciously aware of ourselves. You're making it sound like our soul isn't truly us, that it's like our brain.

 

[ChieftheCef]

A magical natural thing?


Kind of like a married bachelor.

You're too biased to even understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

In my religion there exists a greater than reality, which is where everything within reality came to be. I believe that we were once a part of what is greater than reality, but we were removed, and reformed within reality which was also created by removing it from greater than reality and reforming it. This is why I believe the main point of life is to be an individual, and why it seems likely that after death we'll continue to be individuals, just in a more ideal situation (an afterlife devoid of suffering).

I'm kind of confused. You said we were removed and reformed within reality. What is reality to you? What is a 'greater than reality'?

I agree that the main point of life is to be an individual and I believe we are all individuals and will continue to be individuals after death.
We are and will continue to be individual souls. The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around and allows it to function on earth.
After the body dies, the soul continues to function in the spiritual world in another form, a spiritual body.

It's our bodies/minds that allow us to be consciously aware of ourselves. You're making it sound like our soul isn't truly us, that it's like our brain.

The soul is truly us, and the soul works through the brain and mind while we are living on earth in a body. The soul animates and directs the body and brain, but when we die and no longer have a body the soul continues to live. It lives forever, and that is why it is called an 'immortal soul.'

The soul manifests itself in our thought process. The soul itself does not have cognitive functions, only the brain has those, but the soul 'animates' the brain so it is responsible for our ability to think and feel. If we had no soul the body would have no life.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You're too biased to even understand.

I'll take that as you not being able to properly explain what you meant, I guess.

I'm sorry, I just don't see in what universe "magical" and "natural" are the same thing.
Magical things by definition aren't natural.

 

[Echogem222]

I'm kind of confused. You said we were removed and reformed within reality. What is reality to you? What is a 'greater than reality'?

I agree that the main point of life is to be an individual and I believe we are all individuals and will continue to be individuals after death.
We are and will continue to be individual souls. The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around and allows it to function on earth.
After the body dies, the soul continues to function in the spiritual world in another form, a spiritual body.

The soul is truly us, and the soul works through the brain and mind while we are living on earth in a body. The soul animates and directs the body and brain, but when we die and no longer have a body the soul continues to live. It lives forever, and that is why it is called an 'immortal soul.'

The soul manifests itself in our thought process. The soul itself does not have cognitive functions, only the brain has those, but the soul 'animates' the brain so it is responsible for our ability to think and feel. If we had no soul the body would have no life.

I see the soul as just allowing us to be aware that we exist, so if a human were to have no soul but still be alive, they would be like an AI, so if asked if they were aware of themselves existing, they would say no (or something along those lines).

Reality is everything within our comprehension, so take for example the idea of greater than infinity, we understand infinity as something that goes on forever, but greater than infinity would mean something that goes on longer than forever, this is something we can't comprehend at all, hence, it would be something that exists outside of reality, where the value system we can understand exists in reality no longer applies.

 

[ChieftheCef]

I'll take that as you not being able to properly explain what you meant, I guess.

I'm sorry, I just don't see in what universe "magical" and "natural" are the same thing.
Magical things by definition aren't natural.

And you'll take that wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see the soul as just allowing us to be aware that we exist, so if a human were to have no soul but still be alive, they would be like an AI, so if asked if they were aware of themselves existing, they would say no (or something along those lines).

Yes, I agree.

Reality is everything within our comprehension, so take for example the idea of greater than infinity, we understand infinity as something that goes on forever, but greater than infinity would mean something that goes on longer than forever, this is something we can't comprehend at all, hence, it would be something that exists outside of reality, where the value system we can understand exists in reality no longer applies.

Yes, I agree, and that is insightful and well stated.

 

[Echogem222]

Yes, I agree.

Yes, I agree, and that is insightful and well stated.

That's actually surprising, when I've told many others about the idea of there being something greater than infinity they always seem to not get it and think that it's impossible. I don't suppose you'd mind telling me what religion or non-religion you believe in? You seem like you have a very interesting viewpoint.

Edit: Never mind, I just checked your profile and found that you believe in the Baha'i faith (I've been recently studying that religion and I do find it very interesting, though this is my first time really having much of a conversation with someone who believes in that religion). Still, I'm aware (at least I think I am) that people of the Baha'i faith don't always have the same viewpoint, so I'm still curious what your viewpoint is (if you're willing to share anyway).

 

[Trailblazer]

That's actually surprising, when I've told many others about the idea of there being something greater than infinity they always seem to not get it and think that it's impossible. I don't suppose you'd mind telling me what religion or non-religion you believe in? You seem like you have a very interesting viewpoint.

I don't believe there can be anything greater than infinity, but no human can even conceive of infinity since it is beyond our conception. We are finite beings so we can only understand what exists within reality, according to how we understand reality. Not everyone understands reality the same way. Atheists do not believe there is any more to reality than this material world, and what astronomers have been able to identify that exists beyond this world, but Baha'is believe there is a spiritual world, although we cannot really understand what it consists of since we have neither seen nor experienced it, and won't until we die.

Edit: Never mind, I just checked your profile and found that you believe in the Baha'i faith (I've been recently studying that religion and I do find it very interesting, though this is my first time really having much of a conversation with someone who believes in that religion). Still, I'm aware (at least I think I am) that people of the Baha'i faith don't always have the same viewpoint, so I'm still curious what your viewpoint is (if you're willing to share anyway).

I have the same core beliefs as other Baha'is, but my viewpoints can be rather different, especially when it comes to the attributes of God.
I am always more than happy to share my viewpoints on anything I believe.

 

[Echogem222]

I don't believe there can be anything greater than infinity, but no human can even conceive of infinity since it is beyond our conception. We are finite beings so we can only understand what exists within reality, according to how we understand reality. Not everyone understands reality the same way. Atheists do not believe there is any more to reality than this material world, and what astronomers have been able to identify that exists beyond this world, but Baha'is believe there is a spiritual world, although we cannot really understand what it consists of since we have neither seen nor experienced it, and won't until we die.

I have the same core beliefs as other Baha'is, but my viewpoints can be rather different, especially when it comes to the attributes of God.
I am always more than happy to share my viewpoints on anything I believe.

I'm confused, you say now that you don't believe anything can exist beyond infinity, but you said that you agreed with my explanation about reality (I guess I just misunderstood though).
"but no human can even conceive of infinity since it is beyond our conception" There are certainly a number of atoms in the universe which are beyond our ability to conceive, do you not think that there is something greater than them, where they all came from?

Yes, I do understand why it's hard to conceive of there being something that is not reality but is actually greater than reality, however, if you just say that reality exists and nothing greater than reality exists, then reality will have no explanation of why it exists, it just always has, but to me, that doesn't make any sense. Still, you seem to understand things differently, so I'm curious why you don't believe what I do about this matter.

Also, about atheists, I'm actually an atheist that believes in a religion, and I (as I've already explained) do believe there is more to reality than this material world/universe, that there is an afterlife, this is because I believe that there is a greater than reality, and because such a thing can't be defined as anything more than what is greater than reality is why I'm an atheist, because you can't define what is greater than reality as God(s).

I know it may sound like I'm being critical of your religion, but that's not my aim at all, I just wish to understand your view better, so I can understand how your viewpoint all connects together.

 

[ChieftheCef]

I see the soul as just allowing us to be aware that we exist,

I agree with you, but I have found it is also things like your memories, essentially who you are

so if a human were to have no soul but still be alive, they would be like an AI, so if asked if they were aware of themselves existing, they would say no (or something along those lines).

I have to disagree. A soul by definition cannot be sold except into a sort of slavery like to a deity. It cannot be bargained, except in so much as what you agree to do, or what you do. You always have your experience, more or less.

Reality is everything within our comprehension, so take for example the idea of greater than infinity, we understand infinity as something that goes on forever, but greater than infinity would mean something that goes on longer than forever, this is something we can't comprehend at all, hence, it would be something that exists outside of reality, where the value system we can understand exists in reality no longer applies.

That's a very flawed way to look at it. Humans have evolved only so long, and only having to comprehend such things as the environment in which they find themselves, Earth stuff. There's so much that exists that is out of our comprehension. I view reality as all that can be known to the omnipotent, though I wouldn't say god was. I would say the world, Nature, the universe is alive, and they know themselves and can do what they are able to do and may seem omnipotent to dumb people but they are not omnipotent, they can just do what's in the realm of possibilities for what they can do.

 

[Echogem222]

I agree with you, but I have found it is also things like your memories, essentially who you are

That's your identity, it's not your soul. Life is like playing an RPG video game, you identify as the character you're playing as, but when you stop playing the "game" you no longer identify as the "character".

I have to disagree. A soul by definition cannot be sold except into a sort of slavery like to a deity. It cannot be bargained, except in so much as what you agree to do, or what you do. You always have your experience, more or less.

I have no clue what you're talking about, but I have a feeling you're misunderstanding what I was saying.

That's a very flawed way to look at it. Humans have evolved only so long, and only having to comprehend such things as the environment in which they find themselves, Earth stuff. There's so much that exists that is out of our comprehension. I view reality as all that can be known to the omnipotent, though I wouldn't say god was. I would say the world, Nature, the universe is alive, and they know themselves and can do what they are able to do and may seem omnipotent to dumb people but they are not omnipotent, they can just do what's in the realm of possibilities for what they can do.

That's like saying you know more than I do, that's why you know I'm wrong (you said flawed, but that's to imply that I'm wrong). I agree that what I've said is only a possibility that I have faith in, but it's not something that you can determine as wrong.

 

[ChieftheCef]

That's your identity, it's not your soul. Life is like playing an RPG video game, you identify as the character you're playing as, but when you stop playing the "game" you no longer identify as the "character".

Could you tell me why that's not just semantics?

I have no clue what you're talking about, but I have a feeling you're misunderstanding what I was saying.

No, I didn't you aren't smart enough to understand what I am saying. I am saying you cannot get rid of your experience, it always comes back in what amounts to a second.

That's like saying you know more than I do, that's why you know I'm wrong (you said flawed, but that's to imply that I'm wrong). I agree that what I've said is only a possibility that I have faith in, but it's not something that you can determine as wrong.

Bull****! Anyone can determine anything to be wrong.