Question for Jews, Christians and Muslims

[Caladan]

Is slavery right or wrong?

Auto, Do you know of any Jews who own slaves?
really I'm interested. I need someone to carry my equipment around.

 

[Autodidact]

Thats handy because I do not have paypal to receive.

Rhetorical question, was Jesus dead when he said this?
answer=no

until the moment Jesus was sacrificed the OT law was still in effect.

The shedding of the blood and the ressurection is everything and everything changed because of it.

While Jesus was alive, the law was the law.

And again I am a modern, fallible man.

An expansion of the golden rule starting Romans 13:8
A clear indication that the law is finished with and a set of instructions that nobody could declare were compatible with slavery.

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Which about closes the case on that line.

Jews and Muslims up next I reckon

You're not following me. Your God, the God you worship is immoral. He endorses slavery, which you say is wrong. It's not about what law is in effect when. It's about the nature of God. If God is not good, then He is not worthy of worship. How can a good being have a bad morality? Do you understand the question?

 

[Autodidact]

Auto, Do you know of any Jews who own slaves?
really I'm interested. I need someone to carry my equipment around.

No. Modern, secular countries have made it illegal, and Jews obey those laws. However, as far as Jewish law goes it is legal, which is the point. Further, G-d, your god, thinks it's fine, as long as your slaves are gentile. Is G-d good?

 

[Caladan]

No. Modern, secular countries have made it illegal, and Jews obey those laws. However, as far as Jewish law goes it is legal, which is the point. Further, G-d, your god, thinks it's fine, as long as your slaves are gentile. Is G-d good?

Really that's rich. I've probably chewed on the fact that I'm a strong atheist on this forum for at least a couple of years. he is much your God as he is mine. its not a credit to get glued to standards which were completely normative during the time of writing the scripture. furthermore, if people make a small research, they will find interesting material about the Biblical norms of slavery which are claimed to have improve the standards of slaves.
For those who wrote the Bible, slavery was a common norm in the entire region as it was in the entire world. it is people commenting about their reality, has nothing to do with God.

 

[Autodidact]

Really that's rich. I've probably chewed on the fact that I'm a strong atheist on this forum for at least a couple of years. he is much your God as he is mine. its not a credit to get glued to standards which were completely normative during the time of writing the scripture. furthermore, if people make a small research, they will find interesting material about the Biblical norms of slavery which are claimed to have improve the standards of slaves.
For those who wrote the Bible, slavery was a common norm in the entire region as it was in the entire world. it is people commenting about their reality, has nothing to do with God.

sorry, lost track of who's whom. Anyway, my point is not that Jews, Christians or Muslims are bad, but that either:
(1) the approve of slavery OR
(2) worship a God who authorizes something they think is wrong.

 

[Caladan]

sorry, lost track of who's whom. Anyway, my point is not that Jews, Christians or Muslims are bad, but that either:
(1) the approve of slavery OR
(2) worship a God who authorizes something they think is wrong.

I'm sorry Auto. EVERYONE approved of slavery. the Romans, the Greeks, and all the cultures who passed between them.
If you want to argue about slavery in the modern age. that would be a better case. as far as I know a form of slavery was still practiced in Saudi Arabia just a few decades ago.

 

[Rakhel]

I'm sorry Auto. EVERYONE approved of slavery. the Romans, the Greeks, and all the cultures who passed between them.
If you want to argue about slavery in the modern age. that would be a better case. as far as I know a form of slavery was still practiced in Saudi Arabia just a few decades ago.

"Just a few decades ago?" Oh my, I think that is a little behind the times, Caladan. The practice still goes on to this day. We call them "sweatshops" here. There have been numerous cases, including a diplomat(I'll have to look up the articles), where a person was brought from their home countries to "serve" in their masters homes. Some as young as 13 are brought to this country to be "maids" or "au pairs" under the guise of a better education and the promise of college.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm sorry Auto. EVERYONE approved of slavery. the Romans, the Greeks, and all the cultures who passed between them.
If you want to argue about slavery in the modern age. that would be a better case. as far as I know a form of slavery was still practiced in Saudi Arabia just a few decades ago.

Yes, but I don't know anyone now who worships the Greek or Roman Gods.
Of course YHWH approved slavery because everyone did, because the morality of the Tanakh (and NT and qur'an) encapsulates the morality of the people of the time.

 

[Autodidact]

"Just a few decades ago?" Oh my, I think that is a little behind the times, Caladan. The practice still goes on to this day. We call them "sweatshops" here. There have been numerous cases, including a diplomat(I'll have to look up the articles), where a person was brought from their home countries to "serve" in their masters homes. Some as young as 13 are brought to this country to be "maids" or "au pairs" under the guise of a better education and the promise of college.

And apparently, as long as they're foreign, it's o.k. with G-d.

 

[Nooj]

What is hateful to you do not do to your neighbor. aka golden rule.

You may follow the Golden Rule, but people have rejected it for as long as humans have existed. Is your support of the Golden Rule right and their rejection of it wrong?

 

[Caladan]

Yes, but I don't know anyone now who worships the Greek or Roman Gods.
Of course YHWH approved slavery because everyone did, because the morality of the Tanakh (and NT and qur'an) encapsulates the morality of the people of the time.

Like I said I don't know of any Jews who own slaves. therefore I presume Jews realize the reality of the scribes. again has nothing to do with a God.
I'm always puzzled when even atheists treat the Bible literally. come on, give the Christians a break, they don't practice slavery in the US any more. ergo I assume that most Christians do not treat the Bible as the 100% word of God with no input and opinion of the Jewish scribes who laboured on the book out of the challenges of the ancient near east.

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

You're not following me. Your God, the God you worship is immoral. He endorses slavery, which you say is wrong. It's not about what law is in effect when. It's about the nature of God. If God is not good, then He is not worthy of worship. How can a good being have a bad morality? Do you understand the question?

For me it is about what law is in effect when, (you did ask for a Christian in your list) you see there is a long story of how the Jews of the time ended up doing what and when.

If we were living under the law and had been all our lives both yours and my opinions may be different on it,
That you or I say it is wrong has everything to do with our time of birth.

ie we were not born at a time when slavery was pretty much a fact of human life.

However we are born at a time when capitalism is a fact of life.

To me capitalism is wrong, imho its a system that creates more mysery, death and suffering than slavery ever did would or could, and indeed in more recent times was the driving force of slavery, not that I am a communist, I am more of a socialist yet I am sure there are verses in the Bible one could quote in support of it.
None spring to my mind without cheating with google but I bet there are.

Is capitalism wrong?

I say yes it is, what do you say?

also to me capital punishment is wrong,
(no murder, and two wrongs do not make a right, they make two wrongs, golden rule)

is it wrong to you?

Yet without it I would not be saved, the way I live my life is due to an act of capital punishment.

What I think is right or wrong stems from that act and its meanings for all of us.
And is quite clear in the golden rule I quoted, slavery is now indeed wrong both in my mind and in the the scriptures,
so is capital punishment.

capitalism? still open to debate.

 

[Rakhel]

And apparently, as long as they're foreign, it's o.k. with G-d.

I think you are assuming that all "masters" are Christian. You would be wrong.

 

[Autodidact]

You may follow the Golden Rule, but people have rejected it for as long as humans have existed. Is your support of the Golden Rule right and their rejection of it wrong?

Yes.

/

 

[Autodidact]

Like I said I don't know of any Jews who own slaves. therefore I presume Jews realize the reality of the scribes. again has nothing to do with a God.
I'm always puzzled when even atheists treat the Bible literally. come on, give the Christians a break, they don't practice slavery in the US any more. ergo I assume that most Christians do not treat the Bible as the 100% word of God with no input and opinion of the Jewish scribes who laboured on the book out of the challenges of the ancient near east.

Christians don't practice slavery in the U.S. because it is not legal to do so. Had it been up to the church, it would still be legal today.

But that's beside the point, which is not about Christian behavior. It's about whether the God they worship is good. Clearly, He is not. Unless you think slavery is good.

 

[Autodidact]

For me it is about what law is in effect when, (you did ask for a Christian in your list) you see there is a long story of how the Jews of the time ended up doing what and when.

If we were living under the law and had been all our lives both yours and my opinions may be different on it,
That you or I say it is wrong has everything to do with our time of birth.

ie we were not born at a time when slavery was pretty much a fact of human life.

However we are born at a time when capitalism is a fact of life.

To me capitalism is wrong, imho its a system that creates more mysery, death and suffering than slavery ever did would or could, and indeed in more recent times was the driving force of slavery, not that I am a communist, I am more of a socialist yet I am sure there are verses in the Bible one could quote in support of it.
None spring to my mind without cheating with google but I bet there are.

Is capitalism wrong?

I say yes it is, what do you say?

also to me capital punishment is wrong,
(no murder, and two wrongs do not make a right, they make two wrongs, golden rule)

is it wrong to you?

Yet without it I would not be saved, the way I live my life is due to an act of capital punishment.

What I think is right or wrong stems from that act and its meanings for all of us.
And is quite clear in the golden rule I quoted, slavery is now indeed wrong both in my mind and in the the scriptures,
so is capital punishment.

capitalism? still open to debate.

Start a thread. However, the point of this one is that you, Neo, believe that slavery is wrong. Your God, Jesus, disagrees with you. He says it's right. This raises interesting questions:

Do you worship an evil God?
On what do you base your morals, if not Jesus?

 

[Autodidact]

I think you are assuming that all "masters" are Christian. You would be wrong.

No, I'm not. My point is that for Jews, from a strictly religious point of view, owning foreign slaves is permissible. Do you think it's moral for people to own other people as property?

 

[Nooj]

Yes.

/

Why do you think the Golden Rule is right and they're wrong?

 

[Caladan]

Christians don't practice slavery in the U.S. because it is not legal to do so. Had it been up to the church, it would still be legal today.

But that's beside the point, which is not about Christian behavior. It's about whether the God they worship is good. Clearly, He is not. Unless you think slavery is good.

That's a weak argument. actually I would call to the contrary. slavery was the norm and standard in the ancient near east, the Bible regulates slavery and accommodates slaves into more safety in this social system.
ergo if you insist on making your argument on literal agendas, I would say that the Hebrew Bible and the God who inspired the written word has encouraged a healthy social and political change in this age old system.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

*crickets*

How about you atheists, Hindus, Buddhists. Is slavery right or wrong?

Wrong ! In the modern world it is not even open for consideration.