Question for Jews, Christians and Muslims

[Autodidact]

Are we going to play this for a long time?
Or should I just post the standard RF photo of Circular Reasoning IS.. ?

Everyone bought slaves. every culture. right from the Bronze Age and the Iron Age (probably before that), and up to the 20 century, and there are certainly realities of modern slavery today around us.
The Hebrew Bible addresses an issue which was prevalent in society of the Known World at the time. perhaps you expected the scribes and social officials behind the Scripture and Text to simply ignore these vast social phenomenon and occupy other lands to liberate their slaves? perhaps calling it 'Operation Mesopotamian Freedom'?

No, I expected them to codify the morality of their era, which is what they did. Unfortunately, many modern people think something much more was going on, and it is those people I am addressing.

 

[Autodidact]

There are slaves everywhere. Just look in the dark corners of any city, see those people sticking needles in their arm?

Slaves.

Define slavery.

Hint: it's not about the 'Master'.

I'm referring here to chattel slavery, which is an institution where one human being owns another as property, and can sell that person to someone else.

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

Play it till you give an answer. Auto does not care if it was prevalent at the time, auto does not care if it is prevalent now, auto does not care if God did not ask for slaves to be freed, auto only asks why god approved of it. It is not Man's morality that is questioned here but God's. If you do not approve of slavery why follow a god who does? If I have picked you up wrong here Auto then I apologize.

Correct use of the word approved and hence why we can worship God and be against slavery since Jesus sacrifice rendered the law obsolete many many moons, I admire you for sticking up for us.

The greater good in all things often carries costs, we are fallible sinfull men, to assume our wisdom to be superior to the creator of the Universe would be to walk a path into darkness.

However as stated in my previous posts, given the year we live in and its relation to the chronological events of the Bible, ie Jesus is dead and risen, slavery is now against every aspect of what we have been commanded to do to pay our debt to Jesus.

Reasons enough why we can follow God.

You need to build a time machine, go back to before Christs sacrifice and put this question to them as it is not relevant to us.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[Autodidact]

You keep using the present tense in all your questions which leads me to conclude that you are not reading my replies or the part about Jesus sacrifice and what it means eluded your eyes.
I do not expect you to believe in it but when you try a probe my beliefs I do expect you to note the answers.
Or else its just an ill informed heckle.
My beliefs or morals are not in conflict with what scripture tells people they should do on the back of Jesus sacrifice.
Refusal to answer my questions indicates a one way conversation, which is not very productive, the questions were related on the concepts of right and wrong but hey ho.
Thanks for your time anyways.
But to answer yours:

I do not worship an evil God.

I base my morals on the Golden rule as I cut and pasted for you.
And in a round about way I have already said as much.

You're not following. Jesus is God. Present tense, right? God told us we could buy slaves. Buying slaves is evil. (says you.) Your God, Jesus said something you think is wrong. Your God allows you to do something you think is evil. Can you deal with that?

What difference does it make how He died later? The point is, His morality is flawed, don't you agree?

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

You're not following. Jesus is God. Present tense, right? God told us we could buy slaves. Buying slaves is evil. (says you.) Your God, Jesus said something you think is wrong. Your God allows you to do something you think is evil. Can you deal with that?

What difference does it make how He died later? The point is, His morality is flawed, don't you agree?

No I do not agree his morality is flawed, you are super imposing your views (based on your modern life) on what Gods views should have been at all points in human history, you as am I are fallible with limited experience and have few facts compared to one who knows everything.

I do follow BUT you are not reading what i write and more than that you are putting words into my mouth which is a poor debate tactic imho, I never said evil i said wrong (agreed?), lets try block capitals and see if it sinks in.


GOD NEVER TOLD ME OR YOU THAT WE COULD BUY SLAVES, HE TOLD JEWS TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO, THESE WERE THE LAWS THEY HAD TO FOLLOW, DEBT FOR SIN, HIS DEATH ENDED THE LAW, OUR ONLY DEBT IS NOW THE GOLDEN RULE, SEE GOLDEN RULE PRINTED EARLIER IN OUR CONVERSATION.


Now a question to you, if you keep to the golden rule does it permit slavery in your view?.
(And keep in mind your golden rule mirrors the golden rule in Romans pretty much, you may be a Christian and not know it but dont be alarmed lol)
Will need an answer to that one as this is all too one way.

 

[waitasec]

GOD NEVER TOLD ME OR YOU THAT WE COULD BUY SLAVES, HE TOLD JEWS TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO, THESE WERE THE LAWS THEY HAD TO FOLLOW, HIS DEATH ENDED THE LAW, OUR ONLY DEBT IS NOW THE GOLDEN RULE, SEE GOLDEN RULE PRINTED EARLIER IN OUR CONVERSATION.


Now a question to you, if you keep to the golden rule does it permit slavery in your view?.

do you think the golden rule exclusively comes from the god of the bible?
if you do you are mistaken.

i also don't understand how the death and resurrection of jesus has anything to do with how the laws of god's morality changed, can you provide scripture that supports this claim? from what i understand, the death and resurrection of jesus was that of the ultimate scapegoat for our sins, not that the laws of what constitutes sin changes.

 

[Autodidact]

No I do not agree his morality is flawed, you are super imposing your views (based on your modern life) on what Gods views should have been at all points in human history, you as am I are fallible with limited experience and have few facts compared to one who knows everything.

Wasn 't it you who said slavery was wrong? Which is it, right or wrong?

GOD NEVER TOLD ME OR YOU THAT WE COULD BUY SLAVES, HE TOLD JEWS TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO, THESE WERE THE LAWS THEY HAD TO FOLLOW, DEBT FOR SIN, HIS DEATH ENDED THE LAW, OUR ONLY DEBT IS NOW THE GOLDEN RULE, SEE GOLDEN RULE PRINTED EARLIER IN OUR CONVERSATION.

How does that make it any better? Was slavery right then?

Now a question to you, if you keep to the golden rule does it permit slavery in your view?.

No.

(And keep in mind your golden rule mirrors the golden rule in Romans pretty much, you may be a Christian and not know it but dont be alarmed lol)
Will need an answer to that one as this is all too one way.

Don't be offensive in your ignorance. Rabbi Hillel formulated this rule long before that. Not to mention even older Greek writers, Jains, Confucius, etc.

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

How does that make it any better? Was slavery right then?

No.

to the first question, I cant say, I was not there and I do not know Gods plans in full.
But then again you would need to start a new thread for that one, your thread starter for this thread was "IS slavery wrong"

thank you for answering my question, no.

Which means for US by the Bibles own text, slavery IS wrong.
Which is why I from a faith perspective can say it IS wrong.

yet the wrong happens still, urge all to donate to a charity that deals with the problem of slavery in the modern world.

Think that answers the whole ball of wax.
Will sit back, relax and see how the others get on lol.
Happy hunting.

 

[Levite]

I will just point out that as usual, God's behavior is also perfectly consistent with not existing.

Well, sure. But nearly any theological point can be countered by simply withdrawing from theology altogether.

That is, I think, why theology really can only be made by people who believe in God; since it is, after all, a matter of spiritual belief, not of mathematical or scientific fact. One begins to discuss God in a theological, rather than an atheological, manner, when one experiences or chooses to believe in Him.

Otherwise, an atheist will always prefer an atheological answer. But that is only to be expected; and is one more argument, IMO, for why it is really just silly for theists and atheists to try and convince or convert one another. Which last, BTW, was more an abstract conclusion on my part-- I wasn't implying anything about you or what you were saying. I know better than that.

 

[Autodidact]

to the first question, I cant say, I was not there and I do not know Gods plans in full.
But then again you would need to start a new thread for that one, your thread starter for this thread was "IS slavery wrong"

To which you answered that it is. Now you can't say?

thank you for answering my question, no.

Which means for US by the Bibles own text, slavery IS wrong.

I"m sorry, the Bible's own text clearly says you may buy slaves.

Oh, I say, you're asserting that the Bible contradicts itself.

Which is why I from a faith perspective can say it IS wrong.

I thought you can't say. Did you just say that you can't say? I'm so confused. Can you say, or not?

 

[waitasec]

Oh, I say, you're asserting that the Bible contradicts itself.

we can't have that now, can we? :sarcastic

 

[Mister Emu]

I wonder why no religionists are interested in or willing to answer this question. To me, an atheist, it seems elementary.

Maybe because it is intended to "catch" the people answering disagreeing with their holy book?

Slavery is wrong. While not expressly forbidding slavery, I believe the Bible(specifically Philemon) suggests the immorality of it. If we are to treat each other as brothers, as of the same flesh and blood, where does slavery fit in? It does not.

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

To which you answered that it is. Now you can't say?
I"m sorry, the Bible's own text clearly says you may buy slaves.

Oh, I say, you're asserting that the Bible contradicts itself.
I thought you can't say. Did you just say that you can't say? I'm so confused. Can you say, or not?

I just gave a very clear answer on it.
Again the Bible does not state that I may buy slaves.
And by your own admission if I follow the Golden rule, the Bible prohibits me from doing so.
An answer to the question posed in the OP has been given and if you can grasp chronology of events, your admission that the golden rule prohibits me from buying slaves answers your own question posed in the OP.
Was it Gods will that the Jews were to suffer? yes without a doubt.
Do I feel that Gods motives are Good? yes without a doubt.
Do I live after the law? yes without a doubt.
Does that mean slavery is wrong? yes without a doubt.

a clearer answer to the question posed in the OP for debate I can not provide, it has been answered fully.

 

[Zardoz]

I'm referring here to chattel slavery, which is an institution where one human being owns another as property, and can sell that person to someone else.

I'm not so sure there is a difference. Think about it from a slave's POV. All his needs are met. He has zero responsibilities. He has zero decisions to make, all is decided for him. Sure, the living conditions are bad, but bad is relative. I'm guessing no matter what the age we look at, a slave's living conditions in a ruling culture (say Ancient Rome) is better than free men in many other parts of the world at that time. (Starving a slave is just bad economically, if nothing else) There is a type of person who does not find this trade-off all that evil. This is the Slave mentality. Abdication of responsibility, the surrender of free will. No worries, no anxiety. Addiction is not all that different in that regard, really. Neither is idolatry, which as our Rebbi always told us, is quite simply spiritual slavery.

No doubt about it, slavery is evil. Any slavery. Don't allow oneself to become a slave.

 

[Nooj]

What about becoming a slave to God?

 

[Vendetta]

Autodidact,

I've been following some threads you write in. It seems you are, (much like some I know here) anti-religion but more specifically anti-Judeo Christian and Islam. My question is in this thread. My question to you is why make this thread? It is obvious in today's age most rational humans believe slavery of another human is wrong. As I mentioned earlier as an African-American myself, this has been encapsulated in the history of my family. I am sure most Christians, Jews, and Muslims also believe slavery is wrong. I think we tend to forget of the times that existed during Muhammad and Jesus' time

Asking the question: if humanity finds slavery wrong now, why didn't he abolish it back then? If you asked me I don't know. The only example I can give are the Jews during the time guy were in Egypt. However slavery still existed and I believe YHVH is a tribal deity not like Allah which is another story with me......but.my point is, unless you're trying to expose.contradictions why ask the question? When you know most people are against it?

 

[Autodidact]

Maybe because it is intended to "catch" the people answering disagreeing with their holy book?

Yes, and rather than face the contradiction in their own belief system, they prefer to avoid the subject.

Slavery is wrong. While not expressly forbidding slavery, I believe the Bible(specifically Philemon) suggests the immorality of it. If we are to treat each other as brothers, as of the same flesh and blood, where does slavery fit in? It does not.

Philemon? You mean when Paul returned the slave to his master? That Philemon.

True, the Bible does not forbid slavery. More importantly, it specifically authorizes it. How can something authorized by God be bad? How can a good God authorize something bad?

btw, how do you know slavery is wrong?

 

[Autodidact]

I just gave a very clear answer on it.
Again the Bible does not state that I may buy slaves.[/qutoe] It doesn't matter. Your God authorized someone to buy slaves. You say buying slaves is immoral. Your God authorizes behavior you believe to be immoral. How do you reconcile that?

And by your own admission if I follow the Golden rule, the Bible prohibits me from doing so.

Only if the Bible expresses the golden rule. Obviously, it doesn't, unless it's a mass of contradictions.

An answer to the question posed in the OP has been given and if you can grasp chronology of events, your admission that the golden rule prohibits me from buying slaves answers your own question posed in the OP.

Was slavery ever moral?

Was it Gods will that the Jews were to suffer? yes without a doubt.
Do I feel that Gods motives are Good? yes without a doubt.
Do I live after the law? yes without a doubt.
Does that mean slavery is wrong? yes without a doubt.

Then why did God authorize His people to practice it?

a clearer answer to the question posed in the OP for debate I can not provide, it has been answered fully.

I think it's better to let others decide what points you have carried, or not, don't you?

btw, did Jesus ever prohibit slavery? Or does Christianity teach that all are welcome to join in Christ, both slave and slave-master?

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not so sure there is a difference. Think about it from a slave's POV. All his needs are met. He has zero responsibilities. He has zero decisions to make, all is decided for him. Sure, the living conditions are bad, but bad is relative. I'm guessing no matter what the age we look at, a slave's living conditions in a ruling culture (say Ancient Rome) is better than free men in many other parts of the world at that time. (Starving a slave is just bad economically, if nothing else) There is a type of person who does not find this trade-off all that evil. This is the Slave mentality. Abdication of responsibility, the surrender of free will. No worries, no anxiety. Addiction is not all that different in that regard, really. Neither is idolatry, which as our Rebbi always told us, is quite simply spiritual slavery.

No doubt about it, slavery is evil. Any slavery. Don't allow oneself to become a slave.

Uh, o.k., meanwhile focusing on the subject of this thread, chattel slavery. In your view, is it right or wrong?

 

[Caladan]

Auto your going on bankruptcy with your critic of religion.
this is the 21st century, many Christians do not take the Scriptures as the infallible word of God, and either way, as normal people in all places, they understand that the scriptures deal with ancient times in which standardization of slavery was an essential for society and law. further more, it is strange to hunt down people for working to promote a productive evolving of their faith.
there are far more juicy and interesting Scriptural and religious problems to deal with. then going after archaic scriptural problems, as slavery has been abolished in your nation.