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Question for Jews, Christians and Muslims

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Why do you think the Golden Rule is right and they're wrong?

1. Because special pleading is a fallacy.
2. Actually, I don't think they do reject it. They give lip service to it, at least, all 3 Abrahamic religions do. Their difficult is in actually applying it. Their beliefs are inconsistent with their actions. So I don't think we actually disagree about morality, they are just hypocritical in applying it.

If you want to have a general discussion about morality and its bases, I would be happy to do so in a thread on the subject. In this thread, no one has yet asserted that slavery is morally right, so it's moot here.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
That's a weak argument. actually I would call to the contrary. slavery was the norm and standard in the ancient near east, the Bible regulates slavery and accommodates slaves into more safety in this social system.
ergo if you insist on making your argument on literal agendas, I would say that the Hebrew Bible and the God who inspired the written world has encouraged a healthy social and political change in this age old system.
A God who authorizes us to do bad is perfectly good?
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
A God who authorizes us to do bad is perfectly good?
If you chose to be thick.
You are reading the Bible as a Christian. instead of treating it as a magnifying glass into the ancient near east.
is the threat of witch burning that strong in the land of the free?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
If you chose to be thick.
You are reading the Bible as a Christian. instead of treating it as a magnifying glass into the ancient near east.
is the threat of witch burning that strong in the land of the free?

? How can you read the line "You may buy slaves," other than to mean that you may buy slaves?
 

jnm66

Member
Wrong in all accounts-as in people under slavery...people can also be in bondage to many things....debt....alcohol....drugs....etc...I think it would be wrong under all situations...
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Wrong in all accounts-as in people under slavery...people can also be in bondage to many things....debt....alcohol....drugs....etc...I think it would be wrong under all situations...

O.K., then, same question for you. Your God says it's right. What does that say about your God?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Wrong in all accounts-as in people under slavery...people can also be in bondage to many things....debt....alcohol....drugs....etc...I think it would be wrong under all situations...

oh brother
:facepalm:

you're not serious are you?
giving someone the authority to have dominion over another human being and selling their children off is an entirely different thing all together...
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
O.K. Levite, for you as a believing Jew, how do you account for a God who permits us to do something that is wrong?

What I think is that God understands that as reasoning beings, we evolve, and our comprehension of ethics evolves. In the time of the Torah's giving/composition (more than 3000 years ago) slavery was universal in the Ancient Near East. God was already asking us to make drastic, unprecedented, unparalleled changes in our society, like monotheism and the giving up of idols and other such paraphernalia. I think He understood that those people were simply unready for a quantum leap in ethical reconstruction. If He had demanded things that we now know to be ethical, like giving up slavery, egalitarianism between the sexes, the avoidance of warfare, and so forth, the ancient Jews would have rejected the Torah. They were unprepared to live with that level of total change. And as it was, they barely made it through with what was asked of them. God couldn't demand a complete cessation of slavery, so instead, He limited it, modified it, pushed the boundaries of what was the norm at that time, in that era, of how people could treat one another. It was radical change for that time, but not so much that the people couldn't live with it.

And more importantly, with the Written Torah, He gave us the Oral Torah, and the authority to interpret the written Torah decisively for the purposes of halakhah (Jewish Law). Which means that, as time went on, over the succeeding millennia, and our ethics evolved, so did our willingness to comprehend that something that the Torah permitted but limited might in fact be better prohibited altogether. So that, by the time of the British slavery question, most English Jews were staunch opponents of slavery; and at the time of the American Civil War, though some Jews-- shamefully-- were rich slave owners and even traders, the vast majority of American Jews were opposed to slavery, some quite outspokenly so. And we understand today that, even though the Written Torah permits slavery, that is not what God wants from us, and we know that it is right that it be prohibited to us.

As the centuries have passed, it has become ever more apparent that much of God's wisdom in giving us the Torah-- including the Oral Torah, and the power to interpret and make halakhah-- was that it was intended from the start that our understanding of what God wants from us broaden and deepen as we evolved greater comprehension of ourselves and the world around us. And so we needed to guide us a way of preserving the power of revelation, so that our Torah need not be limited to what our far ancestors could comprehend. Which is what we got.

Slavery is wrong. It was always wrong, and when we practiced it, we were wrong to do so. And I am sure that it was in part through the limitations that God had us place upon it initially that we came to eventually realize its total wrongness. That limited permission was God setting us up on the first step of a long road, which I think He knew perfectly well.
 

Nooj

none
1. Because special pleading is a fallacy.
Where is the special pleading though?

2. Actually, I don't think they do reject it. They give lip service to it, at least, all 3 Abrahamic religions do. Their difficult is in actually applying it. Their beliefs are inconsistent with their actions. So I don't think we actually disagree about morality, they are just hypocritical in applying it.
Everyone is a hypocrite sometime in their life. And I wasn't talking about religious people, I was talking about people like Genghis Khan, who would probably reject the golden rule out of hand because he didn't see the point in following it. Or people who like to do to themselves what they do to others. Or people who accept with indifference the fact that others will do to them what they do to others.

If you want to have a general discussion about morality and its bases, I would be happy to do so in a thread on the subject. In this thread, no one has yet asserted that slavery is morally right, so it's moot here.
I've made a thread here. I'm arguing that slavery is not morally right, but it's not morally wrong either.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
There are slaves everywhere. Just look in the dark corners of any city, see those people sticking needles in their arm?

Slaves.

Define slavery.

Hint: it's not about the 'Master'.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
? How can you read the line "You may buy slaves," other than to mean that you may buy slaves?
Are we going to play this for a long time?
Or should I just post the standard RF photo of Circular Reasoning IS.. ?

Everyone bought slaves. every culture. right from the Bronze Age and the Iron Age (probably before that), and up to the 20 century, and there are certainly realities of modern slavery today around us.
The Hebrew Bible addresses an issue which was prevalent in society of the Known World at the time. perhaps you expected the scribes and social officials behind the Scripture and Text to simply ignore these vast social phenomenon and occupy other lands to liberate their slaves? perhaps calling it 'Operation Mesopotamian Freedom'?
 
Start a thread. However, the point of this one is that you, Neo, believe that slavery is wrong. Your God, Jesus, disagrees with you. He says it's right. This raises interesting questions:

Do you worship an evil God?
On what do you base your morals, if not Jesus?

You keep using the present tense in all your questions which leads me to conclude that you are not reading my replies or the part about Jesus sacrifice and what it means eluded your eyes.
I do not expect you to believe in it but when you try a probe my beliefs I do expect you to note the answers.
Or else its just an ill informed heckle.
My beliefs or morals are not in conflict with what scripture tells people they should do on the back of Jesus sacrifice.
Refusal to answer my questions indicates a one way conversation, which is not very productive, the questions were related on the concepts of right and wrong but hey ho.
Thanks for your time anyways.
But to answer yours:

I do not worship an evil God.

I base my morals on the Golden rule as I cut and pasted for you.
And in a round about way I have already said as much.:facepalm:
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
if morality comes from god why does god bow down to the wishes of it's creation?
if it was written that the women shall be ruled by man...what else does one expect?
morality evolves as history is witness to it. not because of some weak man made deity who was too afraid to show his creation that slavery was wrong and risk his people from turning their backs on it for objecting it's practice...how absurd, how insecure and what an utterly despicable act of arrogance to uphold this idea that morality comes from god which is just an extension of mans understanding of right and wrong in the first place.
it was an act of arrogance of practicing the dominion of one human over the other...
justified and condoned conveniently by bronze age ideology...
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
I'm black and obviously I think it'd wrong. It goes beyond indenture servitude, and to abolish it in the states it took wars and bloodshed and generations later for people (more specifically white people) to realize the mistreatment of other human beings is wrong.....HOWEER

what we think now and how the Hebrews, Muslims, and others thought back then are different.
 

crocusj

Active Member
Are we going to play this for a long time?
Or should I just post the standard RF photo of Circular Reasoning IS.. ?

Everyone bought slaves. every culture. right from the Bronze Age and the Iron Age (probably before that), and up to the 20 century, and there are certainly realities of modern slavery today around us.
The Hebrew Bible addresses an issue which was prevalent in society of the Known World at the time. perhaps you expected the scribes and social officials behind the Scripture and Text to simply ignore these vast social phenomenon and occupy other lands to liberate their slaves? perhaps calling it 'Operation Mesopotamian Freedom'?

Play it till you give an answer. Auto does not care if it was prevalent at the time, auto does not care if it is prevalent now, auto does not care if God did not ask for slaves to be freed, auto only asks why god approved of it. It is not Man's morality that is questioned here but God's. If you do not approve of slavery why follow a god who does? If I have picked you up wrong here Auto then I apologize.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
What I think is that God understands that as reasoning beings, we evolve, and our comprehension of ethics evolves. In the time of the Torah's giving/composition (more than 3000 years ago) slavery was universal in the Ancient Near East. God was already asking us to make drastic, unprecedented, unparalleled changes in our society, like monotheism and the giving up of idols and other such paraphernalia. I think He understood that those people were simply unready for a quantum leap in ethical reconstruction. If He had demanded things that we now know to be ethical, like giving up slavery, egalitarianism between the sexes, the avoidance of warfare, and so forth, the ancient Jews would have rejected the Torah. They were unprepared to live with that level of total change. And as it was, they barely made it through with what was asked of them. God couldn't demand a complete cessation of slavery, so instead, He limited it, modified it, pushed the boundaries of what was the norm at that time, in that era, of how people could treat one another. It was radical change for that time, but not so much that the people couldn't live with it.

And more importantly, with the Written Torah, He gave us the Oral Torah, and the authority to interpret the written Torah decisively for the purposes of halakhah (Jewish Law). Which means that, as time went on, over the succeeding millennia, and our ethics evolved, so did our willingness to comprehend that something that the Torah permitted but limited might in fact be better prohibited altogether. So that, by the time of the British slavery question, most English Jews were staunch opponents of slavery; and at the time of the American Civil War, though some Jews-- shamefully-- were rich slave owners and even traders, the vast majority of American Jews were opposed to slavery, some quite outspokenly so. And we understand today that, even though the Written Torah permits slavery, that is not what God wants from us, and we know that it is right that it be prohibited to us.

As the centuries have passed, it has become ever more apparent that much of God's wisdom in giving us the Torah-- including the Oral Torah, and the power to interpret and make halakhah-- was that it was intended from the start that our understanding of what God wants from us broaden and deepen as we evolved greater comprehension of ourselves and the world around us. And so we needed to guide us a way of preserving the power of revelation, so that our Torah need not be limited to what our far ancestors could comprehend. Which is what we got.

Slavery is wrong. It was always wrong, and when we practiced it, we were wrong to do so. And I am sure that it was in part through the limitations that God had us place upon it initially that we came to eventually realize its total wrongness. That limited permission was God setting us up on the first step of a long road, which I think He knew perfectly well.

Well I can see you've given the question considerable thought. Having experienced your level of education in the past, I was curious as to your thoughts on the question. Needless to say I disagree, but I think you've resolved the contradiction as well as can be expected.

I will just point out that as usual, God's behavior is also perfectly consistent with not existing.
 
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