Question for Jews, Christians and Muslims

[Autodidact]

Autodidact,

I've been following some threads you write in. It seems you are, (much like some I know here) anti-religion but more specifically anti-Judeo Christian and Islam. My question is in this thread. My question to you is why make this thread?

the answer to your question is found in your second sentence.

It is obvious in today's age most rational humans believe slavery of another human is wrong. As I mentioned earlier as an African-American myself, this has been encapsulated in the history of my family. I am sure most Christians, Jews, and Muslims also believe slavery is wrong. I think we tend to forget of the times that existed during Muhammad and Jesus' time

That's fine, as long as we're not advocating living by that moral standard today.

Asking the question: if humanity finds slavery wrong now, why didn't he abolish it back then? If you asked me I don't know. The only example I can give are the Jews during the time guy were in Egypt. However slavery still existed and I believe YHVH is a tribal deity not like Allah which is another story with me......but.my point is, unless you're trying to expose.contradictions why ask the question? When you know most people are against it?

The answer is obvious, as usual. There is no God.

My goal is to point out the contradiction in your belief system. You worship a God whom you believe to be perfect, but whom, in your own view, is evil. How do you reconcile that?

 

[Vendetta]

Hey Auto when did I say I believed in God? I just said YHVH is a tribal deity unlike Allah but I didn't say I was Muslim. Can any athiest person read instead of insinuating I am religious? I am agnostic for the record.

 

[Nooj]

A simple solution is to give up Biblical inerrancy. If it's a choice between the Bible and God, it seems like an easy one. Just say that all the slavery bits weren't from God.

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

I just gave a very clear answer on it.
Again the Bible does not state that I may buy slaves.[/qutoe] It doesn't matter. Your God authorized someone to buy slaves. You say buying slaves is immoral. Your God authorizes behavior you believe to be immoral. How do you reconcile that?
Only if the Bible expresses the golden rule. Obviously, it doesn't, unless it's a mass of contradictions.


I think it's better to let others decide what points you have carried, or not, don't you?

Will answer a couple of the points, the others require there own threads as the question for this thread is "is slavery right or wrong"

I see where you are getting confused, old and new covenant confuses you, it seems to confuse you that the new covenant has differences with the old, let me clarify for you.
Yes the new covenant has differences with the old and a great deal of difference, if it didnt have any differences we may aswell call it the same old covenant.
If you read the Bible in order you will see where this new covenant kicks in, around about the third day after Jesus was crucified, read beyond that point for details of the new covenant, read back and tell me what my only debt is under the new covenant,
ie the golden rule from Romans which by your own admission would not allow for slavery, ie you admitted that for Christians who by the very word live under the new covenant have a debt that does not permit slavery.
Therefore is slavery right or wrong from a Christian perspective?, clearly wrong.

In general I do think it better to let other people decide yes, but only when they are actually listening and sticking to the subject posed for debate.

The question ask was "is slavery right or wrong?"

Unless you wish to change your mind and say the golden rule does permit slavery (a golden rule which is all but the same to the golden rule you quoted earlier in thread)
the question has been answered.

Because when I asked you how you know if it is right and wrong, you quoted the golden rule, if its a good enough answer for you then by that very token it should be a good enough answer for us to the question in the OP.

If the golden rule you quoted is no longer good enough then there is still an issue.

Does your golden rule (mirrored in Romans) still apply to you enough to say slavery is wrong?

If it still stands.

Christianity has answered every bit as well as you were able to, for it is infact by and large the very same answer.

 

[Autodidact]

Will answer a couple of the points, the others require there own threads as the question for this thread is "is slavery right or wrong"

I see where you are getting confused, old and new covenant confuses you, it seems to confuse you that the new covenant has differences with the old, let me clarify for you.
Yes the new covenant has differences with the old and a great deal of difference, if it didnt have any differences we may aswell call it the same old covenant.
If you read the Bible in order you will see where this new covenant kicks in, around about the third day after Jesus was crucified, read beyond that point for details of the new covenant, read back and tell me what my only debt is under the new covenant,
ie the golden rule from Romans which by your own admission would not allow for slavery, ie you admitted that for Christians who by the very word live under the new covenant have a debt that does not permit slavery.
Therefore is slavery right or wrong from a Christian perspective?, clearly wrong.

In general I do think it better to let other people decide yes, but only when they are actually listening and sticking to the subject posed for debate.

The question ask was "is slavery right or wrong?"

Unless you wish to change your mind and say the golden rule does permit slavery (a golden rule which is all but the same to the golden rule you quoted earlier in thread)
the question has been answered.

Because when I asked you how you know if it is right and wrong, you quoted the golden rule, if its a good enough answer for you then by that very token it should be a good enough answer for us to the question in the OP.

If the golden rule you quoted is no longer good enough then there is still an issue.

Does your golden rule (mirrored in Romans) still apply to you enough to say slavery is wrong?

If it still stands.

Christianity has answered every bit as well as you were able to, for it is infact by and large the very same answer.

I don't think the NT version of the golden rule is meant to include slaves. Otherwise how do you get passages like this?

Slaves, you must obey your earthly masters. Show them great respect and be as loyal to them as you are to Christ. 6Try to please them at all times, and not just when you think they are watching

If you are a slave, you should respect and honor your owner. This will keep people from saying bad things about God and about our teaching. 2If any of you slaves have owners who are followers, you should show them respect. After all, they are also followers of Christ, and he loves them. So you should serve and help them the best you can.

Faith in Christ Jesus is what makes each of you equal with each other, whether you are a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a man or a woman. 29So if you belong to Christ, you are now part of Abraham's family, f]" class="footnote">[f] and you will be given what God has promised.

Sounds to me like within Christianity, slavery is accepted, slaves are directed to be good slaves, and both slaves and slave-masters are part of the Christian community.

Since, as I believe you agree, this is inconsistent with the golden rule, it is clear than any golden rule stated in your Bible does not include or apply to slaves.

You didn't answer:
(1) What does Jesus have to say about slavery?
(2) How do you know that slavery is wrong, when your savior did not?

 

[Autodidact]

A simple solution is to give up Biblical inerrancy. If it's a choice between the Bible and God, it seems like an easy one. Just say that all the slavery bits weren't from God.

Do you accept this solution, Neo?

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

I don't think the NT version of the golden rule is meant to include slaves. Otherwise how do you get passages like this?






Sounds to me like within Christianity, slavery is accepted, slaves are directed to be good slaves, and both slaves and slave-masters are part of the Christian community.

Since, as I believe you agree, this is inconsistent with the golden rule, it is clear than any golden rule stated in your Bible does not include or apply to slaves.

You didn't answer:
(1) What does Jesus have to say about slavery?
(2) How do you know that slavery is wrong, when your savior did not?

The above is written at a time when slavery was a global condition, the new covenant did not grant freedom to every slave on earth, but at the same time it says to keep slaves is wrong.
The above is simply instructions to people that were living in the reality of there day, to offer a good example to the people above or below you, its how the message of salvation was spread and eventually turned the head of an emperor.

1, before he died (old covenant) or after (new covenant)?
2, because your quote are from a time before Jesus died and the old covenant was still in effect and we are under a new covenant and our only debt is the golden rule.

 

[Autodidact]

The above is written at a time when slavery was a global condition, the new covenant did not grant freedom to every slave on earth, but at the same time it says to keep slaves is wrong.[/qutoe] Where does it say that?

The above is simply instructions to people that were living in the reality of there day, to offer a good example to the people above or below you, its how the message of salvation was spread and eventually turned the head of a emperor.

Oh, so the Bible doesn't apply to us today?

1, before he died (old covenant) or after (new covenant)?

Before he died. What did Jesus think was important for us to know about slavery?

2, because we are under a new covenant and our only debt is the golden rule.

How do you know the Golden Rule applies to slaves? Your savior didn't seem to think so.

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

Do you accept this solution, Neo?

Nah, im good ta

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

The above is written at a time when slavery was a global condition, the new covenant did not grant freedom to every slave on earth, but at the same time it says to keep slaves is wrong.[/qutoe] Where does it say that?
Oh, so the Bible doesn't apply to us today?

Before he died. What did Jesus think was important for us to know about slavery?
How do you know the Golden Rule applies to slaves? Your savior didn't seem to think so.

Your questions avoid who is talking to who and the context of the conversations, I credit you with the common sense to grasp those things yet you ignore them, why is this?.
Its commonly called a quote mine (are you secretly a YEC?)
plus you still seem confused about old and new covenant, look them up for clarity.

 

[waitasec]

Your questions avoid who is talking to who and the context of the conversations, I credit you with the common sense to grasp those things yet you ignore them, why is this?.
Its commonly called a quote mine (are you secretly a YEC?)
plus you still seem confused about old and new covenant, look them up for clarity.

wait a second, does or did god think slavery was good?
does god change his mind? i thought god was a constant?
:areyoucra

 

[Autodidact]

Your questions avoid who is talking to who and the context of the conversations,

Jesus seems to be talking to slaves and slavemasters. If you need to provide more context that somehow explains that when Jesus tells slaves to obey their masters, He actually meant that slavery is wrong, give as much context as you think would be helpful.

plus you still seem confused about old and new covenant, look them up for clarity.

sorry, fail to see the relevance. Jesus says slavery is right. You say slavery is wrong. Who's right, you, or Jesus?

 

[Mister Emu]

Yes, and rather than face the contradiction in their own belief system, they prefer to avoid the subject.

Perhaps a more forthright opening to the discussion would engender more response. I could be wrong though...

Philemon? You mean when Paul returned the slave to his master? That Philemon.

Yes, that Philemon.

btw, how do you know slavery is wrong?

It goes against many of the foundations of morality as I understand it, Christian and otherwise.

If we are to regard all others with love, as brothers true, there is no place for slavery.

 

[Autodidact]

Perhaps a more forthright opening to the discussion would engender more response. I could be wrong though...

Yes, that Philemon.

Wow, I would think at a minimum, Paul would have followed the law, which prohibited him from returning an escaped slave to his master, but for you, endorsing slavery demonstrates an opposition to it? Is it the part where Paul pleads with Philemon to take his slave back that makes you think Paul opposes slavery? Cuz, y'know, he could have told Philemon just to let him go. Just sayin'.

It goes against many of the foundations of morality as I understand it, Christian and otherwise.

If we are to regard all others with love, as brothers true, there is no place for slavery.

O.K., well your religious texts say that there is a place for slavery, slaves and slavemasters. It sounds like your religion does not regard others with love, as brothers true.

 

[NeoWelshRevival]

Jesus seems to be talking to slaves and slavemasters. If you need to provide more context that somehow explains that when Jesus tells slaves to obey their masters, He actually meant that slavery is wrong, give as much context as you think would be helpful.
sorry, fail to see the relevance. Jesus says slavery is right. You say slavery is wrong. Who's right, you, or Jesus?

Your quote mines follow the same class and quality of evidence as the YEC's use of mis-represented scientific data, you fail to see the relevance because your mind seems unable to grasp chronology of events and the significance of Jesus sacrifice.

This whole thread you have provided nothing but quote mines and deliberatly not mentioned who is talking to who and the context/back drop of the conversations, I am sure we both find YEC's mis-representations of scientific data to be intellectually vacuous, quote mines are equally so and to respond to such perpetual lines of intelectual vacuousness both with YEC's and in this conversation has never floated my boat so to speak.

but in the spirit of educating you in the things I suspect you already know from your quote mines see the link below, it explains them all and will save me a lot of typing.
Given that quote mines have been all you have had to offer so far as a rebuttal I will have to withdraw here.
Its the bored of YEC bull crap syndrome,

Cheers

Steve.(still with only one debt to God)

Link to the info:What Does The Bible Really Say About Slavery?

 

[Mister Emu]

Is it the part where Paul pleads with Philemon to take his slave back that makes you think Paul opposes slavery?

Yes, the part where Paul entreats Philemon to receive Onesimus "not as a servant, but... a brother beloved"... "receive him as you would myself"... and where Paul takes any debt Onesimus might owe Philemon onto himself "If [Onesimus] oweth thee ought, put it on my account. For I, Paul, have written with mine own hand, I will repay it".

O.K., well your religious texts say that there is a place for slavery, slaves and slavemasters. It sounds like your religion does not regard others with love, as brothers true.

They provide a basis for the rejection of the practice of slavery... admittedly while not outright condemning it.

 

[Autodidact]

Your quote mines follow the same class and quality of evidence as the YEC's use of mis-represented scientific data, you fail to see the relevance because your mind seems unable to grasp chronology of events and the significance of Jesus sacrifice.

If you think I have left out any context, or something that shows that Jesus meant the opposite of what I have quoted, please supply it.

Would it help if I provided everything that Jesus said on the subject?

As far as chronology, which apparently is important to your personal belief system:
(1) Jesus approved of slavery at every point of your chronology--before He was born, while He was alive, and after He died. At least, that's what your Bible said.
(2) What is the relevance? Was Jesus evil at some point and then became good?

This whole thread you have provided nothing but quote mines and deliberatly not mentioned who is talking to who and the context/back drop of the conversations, I am sure we both find YEC's mis-representations of scientific data to be intellectually vacuous, quote mines are equally so and to respond to such perpetual lines of intelectual vacuousness both with YEC's and in this conversation has never floated my boat so to speak.

Please show us how any of that makes any difference.

but in the spirit of educating you in the things I suspect you already know from your quote mines see the link below, it explains them all and will save me a lot of typing.
Given that quote mines have been all you have had to offer so far as a rebuttal I will have to withdraw here.

I'm not surprised. I can understand why you don't want to confront or justify the contradictions in your own belief system.

Its the bored of YEC bull crap syndrome,

Odd. If it were bull crap, I would think you would not have any difficulty showing us that.

I find that theists frequently withdraw from the conversation when directly confronted with the illogic of their beliefs.

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, the part where Paul entreats Philemon to receive Onesimus "not as a servant, but... a brother beloved"... "receive him as you would myself"... and where Paul takes any debt Onesimus might owe Philemon onto himself "If [Onesimus] oweth thee ought, put it on my account. For I, Paul, have written with mine own hand, I will repay it".

They provide a basis for the rejection of the practice of slavery... admittedly while not outright condemning it.

Or prohibiting it. Which, after all, God is a pro at.

 

[BruceDLimber]

You might try asking Baha'is, whose scriptures (unlike those of Jews, Christians, and Muslims) explicitly PROHIBIT slavery!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Vendetta]

Bahai comes from Islam....or its a heterodoxical faith of Islam.