imaginaryme
Active Member
It will be, that's my point. I am a razor that has evolved from the grass. There will be more.
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Question for the Non-Muslims
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
You make too many assumptions, one of them being I want to enter paradise. I don´t want to enter paradise if it means I have to sell who I am. But that hell is the alternative is just plain wrong. My issue is not that you are let in and I am not, even though that is unfair if it is based on faith I don´t care that much about paradise anyway, my issue here is with hell and hell alone. It is black and white. It is cruel, unproportonate, sadistic, pure evil, merciless... it should not even be called a punishment, it comes to another level due to its eternal nature. Hell should not exist, because it is an abomination against all that is good in this world. I simply care too much about my fellow man, I have too much compassion, to not find hell disgusting.well first of all you do have some things wrong.
Allah does not send people te hell just because they disbelieve. there will be muslims who will be sent to hell also even though they accept Allah. you do nto know the true intentions and have perfect knowledge of all things. you are only focusing on ungratefulness and not accepting Allah as the creator of all.
why should hell not exist? why should you be rewarded with paradise when you didn't even worship Allah unlike me who does everything for his sake only (well the good that i do, not the bad)
What Makes Paradise a Paradise is Its Being Given As a Reward
(Took out the rest to save space and so I can type a longer post and not worry about the limit of how long they can be
And I am not ungrateful, since for one I don´t ask anything from Allah and second I don´t know what he has done. I only have your word for that he has done everything, just as I would have the word of other religions of what their god(s) have done for me. If I believe Allah does not exist, which I do not, then I am not ungrateful more then I am ungrateful to someone who managed to save my life without me finding out.
Does this means it does not matter if you are a so called "disbeliever" to if you go to hell or not?
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It will be, that's my point. I am a razor that has evolved from the grass. There will be more.
:slap:
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Nope, not once. We are expected to live the right way, because it is what was asked of us.
Living the wrong way brings suffering to yourself and others... That is punishment enough. People will remember you for your deeds in this world after all.
wa:do
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I agree. My thinking is that belief in Hell arises from the notion that some behaviors cannot be punished enough here on Earth thus requiring endless ages in horror that will, in theory, teach the individual how terrible their behavior was. I cannot imagine any being, with intelligence far surpassing our own, being a party to such a heinous torture. It makes little sense.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
People will remember you for your deeds in the next world as well... you will have to live with yourself and your actions. (and how you let yourself, god and everyone else down)
We do not have any written scripture... books rot in the wind and rain, our scripture lives inside us.
You know how you have people who learn to recite the Koran from memory? We have the same thing, just without the book part. People devote their lives to be living keepers of history and wisdom.
wa:do
We do not have any written scripture... books rot in the wind and rain, our scripture lives inside us.
You know how you have people who learn to recite the Koran from memory? We have the same thing, just without the book part. People devote their lives to be living keepers of history and wisdom.
wa:do
So sad, I just wanted to read more about what you believe in. So, i just need to follow your posts around in the forums in order to know what you believe in.
If there is no hell in the hereafter, according to your beliefs, so the evil people in this world will enter to heaven as well? or you don't believe in the concept of heaven and hell in the hereafter all together?
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
I'm always willing to answer questions.So sad, I just wanted to read more about what you believe in. So, i just need to follow your posts around in the forums in order to know what you believe in.
I'm always willing to answer questions.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Everyone has done evil at some point in their lives... as for certainty, 100% certainty means no need for faith.
wa:do
Only if people have no value. I don't believe this to be so.
I don't quite see it that way. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then he would know exactly what is needed to get any given person to "reach him" and be perfectly capable of making it happen. If God doesn't do this, I can only assume it's because he doesn't actually want to save that person.
After all, is it really helping someone if you throw him a rope that you know won't hold his weight?
A child would be nothing without their parents. Should a child of abusive parents simply accept their abuse?
Does the evil done by one who insulted another person or stole from him something can be compared to what Hitler did for instance? Is that what you mean by the argument of "Everyone has done evil at some point in their lives"? They are equal?
That doesn't make sense!
In Islam, God is just, and he won't let evil people get away with it. God will judge them on the hereafter for what they did.
People do have value, a very great one too, that's why God said in the Quran:
30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."
32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. (Quran 2:30-34)
On the other hand, there is no comparison at all between us and this huge universe which we live at. We are so little compared to the thousands and millions of different creatures on earth and the universe as a whole. We can't create ourselves, we can't decide suddenly to live for 1000 years!!! God is keeping us alive on earth, and he can take our soul anytime he choose? can you bring back your soul when he take it?
We should be grateful to God and obey him as we are grateful for our parents and more. Our parents brought us to this life, raised us, protected us, taught us, fed us, and cleaned us, and God is the one who allowed all this to happen because he created the parents who would give birth to us and take care of us, he created our bodies, he created planet earth, the place we live at and supported us with everything needed to live in this life. No sane person can say that human beings are capable of being independent from our surroundings, the limitations in our abilities in power, knowledge, and thinking.
People should save themselves. Do you want your teacher to tell you about the questions coming for the exam and the answers to them?
God made it clear that he want to test us in this life. He provided us with guidance and blessings from him, and only we, can DECIDE whether to follow his guidance or not, because if he DIRECTLY interfered in your decision then it wouldn't be your own decision now would it?
Not true, the one who created you knows well that you can make it if you WANT to.
286. On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. ( Pray: ) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith." (Quran 2:286)
Can you elaborate please?
Exactly what in all this makes it moral for a creator to create a sentient being just to torture it?
I don't see how this follows from what I wrote. If a teacher knows that specific students in his class will fail with the curriculum he's prepared but does nothing to prevent it, there are only three possible explanations:
- the teacher is unable to do what it would take to make the students pass
- the teacher does not know what it would take to make the students pass
- the teacher is unwilling to do what it would take to make the students pass
Which of these is analogous to the situation we're discussing?
Of course it would be.
Say an angel of God appeared directly before me and told me to follow God and how to do it. This would be a very compelling experience for me and would probably make the decision to do what the angel says a very easy choice, but it would still be a choice on my part.
But in any case, don't you yourself believe that God interferes in human affairs to guide humans to him? I mean, you referred to the Quran as being written by God earlier; if that's really true, then the Quran itself would be direct divine interference in the decisions of humanity.
IOW, he does know that his rope won't hold my weight, but it's my fault that I'm too heavy.
I'm just trying to illustrate that "you would be nothing without me" does not imply "I have the right to do whatever I want to you".
Creating you out of nothing, giving you a soul, body, everything you have in this life.
None of the above.
The correct one is:
- the teacher is able to do what it would take to make the students pass.
On the other hand, he can't give them the answers to the questions being asked on the exam hall on a piece of paper while they are taking it because that would defeat the purpose of the exam and considered to be cheating
. He can do whatever it takes to teach them, guide them, giving them examples of previous exams before taking their exam, but then when they are taking the exam "test", it would be pointless to give them straight answers to the questions being asked on the examination day.I don't think there would be any test if an angel appeared before you, because at that moment, you wouldn't doubt he is an angel, and you wouldn't doubt that he came from God.
God want us to have a journey to him, to find him in our own way.
Nope. A written book can't be compared to an angel standing before you, for instance. In this book, he is talking to you, and he made many arguments, advice, warnings, guidance, etc and it's up to you whether to believe it is the word of God or the words of just another writer, a human being. I think it's obvious!
How did you conclude that he KNOWS that his rope won't hold your weight? I just provided for you a statement made by God--the one we are discussing about here--and he stated that he won't give you a rope that can't hold your weight, otherwise, he is the one to be blamed because our abilities are limited, but that contradict with his wisdom and it's just doesn't make any sense, and assuming that he created our minds, it would be impossible for him to commit such a mistake unless we were smarter than him, which is not the case here.
It depends. If that statement was made by a human being, it would be an excuse to abuse me as you have illustrated, but when that statement is made by a just and all wise God, it means he is showing you the relationship between a mere human being, and God.
This does nothing to answer my question. What about these things makes it moral to torture a sentient creature?
That's built into the last option I gave. If the teacher is able to do what it would take to make the student pass but the student does not pass, then we can reasonably conclude that the teacher was unwilling.
But that's not what I'm saying would be needed. A capable enough teacher would be able to motivate a student to pass the exam without resorting to cheating. Sometimes human teachers fail to get their students to pass, but this is because they're limited human beings. If our teacher is God, then the only limit would be God's will, wouldn't it?On the other hand, he can't give them the answers to the questions being asked on the exam hall on a piece of paper while they are taking it because that would defeat the purpose of the exam and considered to be cheating
It would be a ridiculously easy test, but it wouldn't rob me of free will.
If someone were to ask you if you'd prefer a bowl of ice cream or a punch in the face, I could probably guess with pretty good certainty which option you'd choose. This doesn't mean you weren't given a choice, though.
The word of God presented to you on a printed page can't be compared to the word of God presented to you by a divine messenger? Why not?
IOW, God is capable of convincing everyone of the proper path to follow, but chooses instead to give guidance in a way that's subject to uncertainty and doubt.
Because God is supposed to know everything. Isn't he?
Here's my point without the analogy: the Quran does not convince me of the truth of Islam. It doesn't even convince me of the existence of God. As a "rope" that can be used to "save" a person, it fails for me and apparently every other non-Muslim.
You can argue that this is because of a "deficiency" on my part rather than God's, but it's still a situation that would be foreseeable by an all-knowing God, and an all-powerful God would have been able to create a plan of salvation that would account for it.
If your religion is right and I do go to hell, it was God's choice to do so... either by direct action or by omission of action.
That's a different argument. If God's justice and wisdom are what give him the moral authority to do whatever he wants, then this has the built-in assumption that "whatever he wants" will only include wise and just things. This still means it would be immoral for God to do unjust things, and I think that consigning people to Hell would be an unjust thing.
All what i shared with you are my own thoughts, i didn't even use what some scholars have said about this issue and i have not figure out yet all the answers. I don't know God motives in sitting up such a punishment for human beings and i already have spoken in length about what i know in my previous posts with others. All what i know comes from what God says in the Quran, and i'm no scholar, so what i have said is from the little i have understood. It's difficult for me to explain for you God motives because i'm not a God. So, if you have seen ALL my posts about this issue in this thread and you think i have not provided sufficient answers yet, then i can't help it, because i hate to repeat myself. Maybe you can ask some questions which i can answer.
Therefore, based on the statement above, ALL of those who failed during their study should sue their teachers because their teachers were responsible for their failure. Am i right?
Do you even read what you are posting here?
We used the teacher/student analogy to get closer to the concept but that doesn't mean it's accurate 100%. While teacher would teach us directly, God chose to teach us indirectly and left some space for us to grow further spiritually and make our own decisions. It's like the university, lecturers come to teach you and then give you some space to draw your own conclusions and make your own arguments. They are certain that some would succeed and others would fail, and the same with God, he already knows that some would succeed and some others would fail.
You answered it yourself below ...
Exactly. God knows that thinking would lead to doubt and uncertainty, and this is something necessary to know the truth. That's why he created our minds with such abilities.
God said in the Quran that if he wish, he would have made all of us Muslims, but that contradict with his promise which he made earlier before Satan.
I know that many people skip the verse when Muslims and Christians quote their holy scriptures, that's why i rarely use the scriptures unless it's really important to make a point.
Please read the following verses, all of them, because it's very necessary to understand what i'm talking about. I just remembered these verses by the way. So please be patient and read them all, carefully. Just assume this is God talking and listen to what happened and how did all of this start.
Allah said:
26. We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;
27. And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.
28. Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;
29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
30. So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:
31. Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.
32. ((Allah)) said: "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"
33. (Iblis) said: "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."
34. ((Allah)) said: "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.
35. "And the curse shall be on thee till the day of Judgment."
36. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
37. ((Allah)) said: "Respite is granted thee
38. "Till the Day of the Time appointed."
39. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
40. "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
41. ((Allah)) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.
42. "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."
43. And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!
44. To it are seven gates: for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.
45. The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).
46. (Their greeting will be): "Enter ye here in peace and security."
47. And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury: (they will be) brothers (joyfully) facing each other on thrones (of dignity).
48. There no sense of fatigue shall touch them, nor shall they (ever) be asked to leave.
49. Tell My servants that I am indeed the Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;
50. And that My Penalty will be indeed the most grievous Penalty. (Quran 15:26-50)
I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
People usually feel better by putting the blame on the shoulders of others but that doesn't mean it's the right way to go.
You say it's unjust, and God says it's just, so it's your word against his word, and i have no say on that.
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If your reason for believing in it is because it's written in the Quran and you believe the Quran as a matter of faith, that's fine for you... but you should realize that this isn't going to carry a lot of weight for someone like me who doesn't believe that the Quran is the word of God.
No, you're not right. A human teacher has a responsibility to teach at a reasonable level. A human teacher doesn't have a duty of care to ensure that every single student passes.
However, if a teacher made it their personal goal to ensure that every single student passes, then only their human failings and limitations would prevent them from doing this. If God has no failings or limitations, then this does not apply.
Basically, if an all-powerful God tries to make something happen, then it happens, period. If it doesn't happen, then this is a sign that our assessment of what that all-powerful God wanted was wrong. Either that or our assessment of that God's abilities (or existence) was wrong.
So, then, God doesn't want to save everyone.
Except I made that statement to point out that the supposed means of salvation was faulty. It fails at its purported goal.
Sounds a lot like the Christian Calvinist idea of "the elect": not all people are intended to be saved, but only a portion who have been chosen by God.
I take responsibility for my own actions and choices. It's just that I think certian theologies imply that where we end up is ultimately based on God's choices rather than our own independent decisions.
But what standard do you use to deem it "just"? Only God's say-so? What makes an action just or unjust?
For now, i mentioned that i believe in it because it's written in the Quran, but you need to know how i came to believe in it.
I first started by searching for the truth, and i realized that there must be a god who created me and this huge universe.
Then i got to know the nature of this god and whether he is worthy of worship or not.
Then after knowing that there is a god who is worthy of worship and he is the true God, i submitted to him and believed in everything he says.
That's why i believe in the Quran, because it's the word of God, the God i believe in and i put my trust on.
You are an Atheist. You don't believe that God exist, therefore you don't know the nature of the god i'm talking about, so you can't understand the concept of heaven and hell.
I totally agree.
He want to allow human beings to save themselves.
Do you even know the goal? what is the goal in your opinion from what you have understood so far?
They are not chosen by God. If you have read the verses i posted, you would understand that easily.
Did i ever imply that in my posts?
Let's start by what is considered to be "just" to you, in general of course, not about the hell and hereafter issue. If you have defined for me what is "justice" to you, then i'll be able to tell you how we know if God is just or not.