Question for the Non-Muslims

[McBell]

no, says Allah.
enlighten me Mestemia. let me try to understand it.

Allah who?
And why should I give two cricket farts what Allah says?

same with you. you assume that Allah doesn't exist and you have convinced yourself of it. hence you do not believe in Allah nor any other god.

Please stop trying to tell me what I do and do not believe.
For you have no idea what I do and do not believe when it comes to gods, yours or anyone else's.

you assume too much. ok tell me of things that are outside my beliefs so i can learn about them.

:slap:
Have you not been paying attention?

There are more than the two or three choices you want to limit it to.​

oh, you were talking about all the other religions, hence the other options. i do not believe in the other religions because i do not doubt mine. you on the other hand do doubt your belief that god doesn't exist. unless i'm wrong and it only apperas that way. am i wrong?

More assumptions.
I am an agnostic.
More to the point, I am an apathetic agnostic.

of course, science doesn't speak about the after life because there is no evidence of a soul, let alone a totally new world.

And religion merely presents numerous empty promises concerning the after life.

Thus, my not taking a position on that particular quandary.

 

[TashaN]

Then why do so many Muslims paint so many different pictures of "The version written in the Quran"?

We don't disagree on who is God and his attributes which have been clearly mentioned in the Quran. We might differ about other issues that is open to interpretations.

 

[McBell]

We don't disagree on who is God and his attributes which have been clearly mentioned in the Quran. We might differ about other issues that is open to interpretations.

So in other words, you do not want to answer my question.

That is fine.
I was not expecting one anyway.

 

[TashaN]

So in other words, you do not want to answer my question.

That is fine.
I was not expecting one anyway.

I already did. Do you have any other question?

 

[McBell]

I already did.

I disagree.
You did an awful good job at not answering it though.

Do you have any other question?

Nope.
I will merely refer my questions to the local Mosque.
They at least answer them...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You don't want to make any effort to understand the verses huh?

I'm giving this plenty of effort, but I'm beginning to suspect that no matter how much I try, I'll never come to your understanding of them.

Here's my guess: you have a particular understanding of God that you've developed from teaching, upbringing, studying the Quran (the whole Quran, not just these verses), and reflection. You've given me a handful of verses that are consistent with your views and that you think support your position, but they only do this when we assume as true a number of things that I don't believe.

Just read the part where Satan speaks of human beings then God answer him by stating that those who believe in him would enter paradise and those who follow Satan would enter hell.

Wait... you said that if I understood these verses, I wouldn't ask why it would be just for God to punish a finite human action with an infinite punishment.

I get how this passages says that God will punish finite human actions with infinite punishment, but I don't see any way that it explains why it would be just for God to do this.

 

[TashaN]

I disagree.
You did an awful good job at not answering it though.

Nope.
I will merely refer my questions to the local Mosque.
They at least answer them...

Ok, as you wish.

 

[TashaN]

I'm giving this plenty of effort, but I'm beginning to suspect that no matter how much I try, I'll never come to your understanding of them.

Here's my guess: you have a particular understanding of God that you've developed from teaching, upbringing, studying the Quran (the whole Quran, not just these verses), and reflection. You've given me a handful of verses that are consistent with your views and that you think support your position, but they only do this when we assume as true a number of things that I don't believe.

I agree with you. In order to understand what i'm trying to explain, you need to make lots of assumptions. Nevertheless, i don't see how we would be able to seriously discuss this issue in a productive manner without making some assumptions.

If we didn't make some assumptions, this conversation will never end, because i'll have to prove for you that God, angels, Satan, etc exist, and that the story of Adam and Eve is not a fiction, and that Quran is the word of God, and we can go on and on and on with endless circles of arguments which will splash over the place aimlessly.

So how you want us to go? with the assumptions or without?

Do you prefer to start some one-on-one debate about some topics which we can't cover here?

I'm ok with anything you suggest we should do.

Wait... you said that if I understood these verses, I wouldn't ask why it would be just for God to punish a finite human action with an infinite punishment.

I get how this passages says that God will punish finite human actions with infinite punishment, but I don't see any way that it explains why it would be just for God to do this.

Well, that depends. If you will be able to assume, i can point out for you how is that related to your question, and if you choose to reject these assumptions, then i'll wait for you to figure out a way to continue discussing this issue.


Peace and blessings,
Faisal

 

[Sahar]

Nope.
I will merely refer my questions to the local Mosque.
They at least answer them...

he he he

Interesting thread! I read some of Faisal's posts and I really like them, well done :clapFaisal...gazak Allahu khayran!!

 

[Luminous]

We don't disagree on who is God and his attributes which have been clearly mentioned in the Quran. We might differ about other issues that is open to interpretations.

who is God? if it is all-powerful, how does it have a further definition? if allah is good, he is not all powerfull. if allah is wise, why cant he be dumb? is it beyond his power? why can't it be powerless? is it beyond its power? why cant it manifest itself as multiply gods(trinatiy and polytheism), does it not have that power? plus: how do i go to hell for being pure at heart and NOT wanting to follow Satan. I SEE satan in ALL idol scriptures. God hates Idols, thus i do not believe or worship them. if Allah is real then, according to Qu'ran, only Satanists will go to hell? is that your interpretation? or does "following Satan" imply that "anything that is NOT Muhammudist Islam is satanic"? go on, infer. that is all one can do with idol scripture. from that verse you SHOULD infer that only Satanists go to hell. but there are other versus that demean non-muhammudist Islamists as unwilling followers of satan, right? thus, isn't eternal punishment unjust? i didn't have eternity to decide to go againt agnostic truth and with Muhammudist Islam.
I would also beg this of The God in Muhammudist Islam: when did i ask to be created? when did i accept the conditions of creation? for this i do not remember; because i do not remember, i must have never asked. i am now only what i remember, thus it is True that i never asked to be created. this me, the one that thinks while it lives in this existance, never asked to be created. Thus i can only assume i was created against my will, being as what i am now does not remember agreeing to the contract with that entity. it is unfair, that i was created to suffer in hell. for this was the only truth i would find, and the creator according to rumor and hearsay and idol scripture already knew i would suffer in hell, unwillingly. UNFAIR.
so the truth is God is fair and each will be judged by their standards. atheists will likely cease to exist, and theists will experience their respective believed fates. That or there is no afterlife for anyone, whether a creater existst that would creat us only for a limited time is possible. stop being greedy and accept the facts of existance. Thank God you are alive, or dont. you probably didn't ask to be created either. anything is possible, perhaps God will only send anti-agnostic atheists to the only heaven. anything is possible. we are all agnostic.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

who is God? if it is all-powerful, how does it have a further definition? if allah is good, he is not all powerfull. if allah is wise, why cant he be dumb? is it beyond his power? why can't it be powerless? is it beyond its power? why cant it manifest itself as multiply gods(trinatiy and polytheism), does it not have that power? plus: how do i go to hell for being pure at heart and NOT wanting to follow Satan. I SEE satan in ALL idol scriptures. God hates Idols, thus i do not believe or worship them. if Allah is real then, according to Qu'ran, only Satanists will go to hell? is that your interpretation? or does "following Satan" imply that "anything that is NOT Muhammudist Islam is satanic"? go on, infer. that is all one can do with idol scripture. from that verse you SHOULD infer that only Satanists go to hell. but there are other versus that demean non-muhammudist Islamists as unwilling followers of satan, right? thus, isn't eternal punishment unjust? i didn't have eternity to decide to go againt agnostic truth and with Muhammudist Islam.

RE: hell

According to Acts 2:27,31 Jesus was in hell. What Jesus thought he would be doing while in hell we can discern from his words at John 11:11-14. Jesus likened death to being in a deep sleep. So while Jesus was in hell he thought he'd be in a deep sleep-like state.

Jesus would have gotten that idea from the Hebrew OT Scriptures. Such as: King Solomon's words at Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 that the dead know nothing.
Jesus would have also known the Psalms such as: 6:5 that there is no remembrance in death; 13:3 sleep the sleep of death; 115:17 the dead do not praise God; 146:4 at death thoughts perish.

Daniel (12:2) also believed the dead are asleep in the dust of the ground and need to awaken in a resurrection. Awaken from death's sleep during Jesus 1000-year rule over earth.

So hell (Hebrew sheol/ Greek hades) is the common grave of mankind.
A different word Gehenna which was translated as hell fire was a garbage dump where things were destroyed and not kept burning alive forever. Gehenna then is a fitting symbol for destruction not torture.

According to 2nd Thessalonians 1:9 then punishment would not be eternal torture but punished with everlasting destruction for the wicked-Psalm 92:7.

Hell according to Rev 20:13,14 delivers up the dead in hell. Then emptied-out hell (gravedom) is gotten rid of in second death. So hell dies a symbolic death of no return. That is why chapter 21 goes on to say in verses 3,4 that the time will come when there will be No more death starting with Jesus millennial rule over earth.

 

[Gharib]

I disagree.
You did an awful good job at not answering it though.
Nope.
I will merely refer my questions to the local Mosque.
They at least answer them...

if you have questions you don't want the answers to, then don't bother asking.

 

[Gharib]

Allah who?
And why should I give two cricket farts what Allah says?

you'll see.

Please stop trying to tell me what I do and do not believe.
For you have no idea what I do and do not believe when it comes to gods, yours or anyone else's.

so you do believe in (a) god?

:slap:
Have you not been paying attention?

There are more than the two or three choices you want to limit it to.
​

so let me hear about them. you keep saying things but don't seem to be puting forward to many things, well any for that matter.

More assumptions.
I am an agnostic.
More to the point, I am an apathetic agnostic.

what is an apathetic agnostic? i know what agnostic is. darwin was an agnostic from what i've read. agnostics and atheists are pretty much like a brother and sister.

And religion merely presents numerous empty promises concerning the after life.

we will see about that.

Thus, my not taking a position on that particular quandary.

understandable.

 

[darkendless]

you'll see.

So much conviction for something that has as much credibility as the story of Troy (Airing tonight on Channel 9 for all you Aussies).

 

[Gharib]

So much conviction for something that has as much credibility as the story of Troy (Airing tonight on Channel 9 for all you Aussies).

so little conviction knowing that you will die one day like everyone else.

 

[darkendless]

so little conviction knowing that you will die one day like everyone else.

Yep. When i die, i will either be cremated, or rot in the ground.

Thats as certain as any of us can be.

 

[Gharib]

Yep. When i die, i will either be cremated, or rot in the ground.

Thats as certain as any of us can be.

so much conviction for something you haven't experienced.

 

[darkendless]

so much conviction for something you haven't experienced.

Likewise, you havn't died yet, you won't know if Allah is there waiting for you, so why waste your life?

You have to waste time each day praying
You have to get up at sunrise to pray
You have to travel to your mosque

+ more restrictions (alcohol, pork) etc.

 

[Gharib]

Likewise, you havn't died yet, you won't know if Allah is there waiting for you, so why waste your life?

no one needs to die to know if Allah is really there. we can see that while being alive. hence i'm a muslim.

You have to waste time each day praying
You have to get up at sunrise to pray
You have to travel to your mosque

+ more restrictions (alcohol, pork) etc.

ha ha lol. :slap:

 

[McBell]

if you have questions you don't want the answers to, then don't bother asking.

I have learned a long time ago that the Muslims here on RF do a much better job at not answering questions than they do at actually answering them.

That is why I prefer to go to the local Mosque.
At least there they do not pile on the bull **** like one gets here.