Question for the Non-Muslims

[McBell]

You are an Atheist. You don't believe that God exist, therefore you don't know the nature of the god i'm talking about, so you can't understand the concept of heaven and hell.

You're kidding right?
I mean, are you really claiming that one has to believe in order to understand?
Do you really not understand why this is nothing more than a big bunch of self serving cop out?

 

[TashaN]

You're kidding right?
I mean, are you really claiming that one has to believe in order to understand?
Do you really not understand why this is nothing more than a big bunch of self serving cop out?

You misunderstood my post. I didn't ask him to believe in God. My point was that because he doesn't believe in God, so maybe he still don't know the nature of God whom i'm talking about. A Jew, a Christian, etc might have an idea of the nature of God and his qualities. An Atheist might not know what is God because he doesn't believe that God exist on the first place.

So, what he can do is to study how Muslims "for instance" describe and perceive God, then from there, he can start making an informed decision about whether God is just or not.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are an Atheist. You don't believe that God exist, therefore you don't know the nature of the god i'm talking about, so you can't understand the concept of heaven and hell.

Heh... don't sell me short. Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I can't entertain the idea or consider whether it's consistent with logic or the facts at hand.

I totally agree.

Great - so you do believe that there's an all-powerful, all-knowing God who is trying to save all of humanity?

He want to allow human beings to save themselves.

Yet some people aren't saved, apparently.

Do you even know the goal? what is the goal in your opinion from what you have understood so far?

The salvation of all people through their own decisions. Is this incorrect?

They are not chosen by God. If you have read the verses i posted, you would understand that easily.

Did i ever imply that in my posts?

Not explicitly, but I think it's a necessary implication of any theology that includes an all-knowing, all-powerful God.

Let's start by what is considered to be "just" to you, in general of course, not about the hell and hereafter issue. If you have defined for me what is "justice" to you, then i'll be able to tell you how we know if God is just or not.

Well, to start with, the severity of a just punishment would be proportional to the severity of the crime.

How could an infinite punishment ever be proportional to a crime committed by a finite, limited human being?

 

[YmirGF]

How could an infinite punishment ever be proportional to a crime committed by a finite, limited human being?

Hang tight. You're gonna love the answer he gives you.
It might help if you take a deep breath...
and a belt of Scotch before you reply to him.

 

[MissAlice]

opcorn:

 

[TashaN]

Heh... don't sell me short. Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I can't entertain the idea or consider whether it's consistent with logic or the facts at hand.

It's not about entertaining, but rather, about understanding.

Great - so you do believe that there's an all-powerful, all-knowing God who is trying to save all of humanity?

He is not *trying* anything. He gave human beings the choice whether to save themselves or not, because an all-powerful God doesn't just *try*, he would just *do it*.

Yet some people aren't saved, apparently.

Yep.

The salvation of all people through their own decisions. Is this incorrect?

yep, incorrect. The point in creating us is not just salvation. There is a higher and more noble reason for our creation.

Not explicitly, but I think it's a necessary implication of any theology that includes an all-knowing, all-powerful God.

You are assuming alot of things, my friend. If you had a previous experience with Christianity or a sort of background, that doesn't mean you can assume that my beliefs are the same as what you think they are. You need to have a fresh start with me in order to understand what i'm talking about.

Well, to start with, the severity of a just punishment would be proportional to the severity of the crime.

How could an infinite punishment ever be proportional to a crime committed by a finite, limited human being?

Did you understand what the verses i have posted for you earlier were talking about?

Did you even read them carefully as i asked you to do so?

If you really did, you wouldn't have asked such a question. If you still didn't, please go back and read them, then tell me what do you understand.

 

[Gharib]

You make too many assumptions, one of them being I want to enter paradise. I don´t want to enter paradise if it means I have to sell who I am. But that hell is the alternative is just plain wrong. My issue is not that you are let in and I am not, even though that is unfair if it is based on faith I don´t care that much about paradise anyway, my issue here is with hell and hell alone. It is black and white. It is cruel, unproportonate, sadistic, pure evil, merciless... it should not even be called a punishment, it comes to another level due to its eternal nature. Hell should not exist, because it is an abomination against all that is good in this world. I simply care too much about my fellow man, I have too much compassion, to not find hell disgusting.

And I am not ungrateful, since for one I don´t ask anything from Allah and second I don´t know what he has done. I only have your word for that he has done everything, just as I would have the word of other religions of what their god(s) have done for me. If I believe Allah does not exist, which I do not, then I am not ungrateful more then I am ungrateful to someone who managed to save my life without me finding out.

Does this means it does not matter if you are a so called "disbeliever" to if you go to hell or not?

if you don't want paradise then you want hell. but you are saying you don't want paradise but don't like why hell is created. thats a contradiction Kerr.

and hell is painfull more than it is disgusting.

 

[Kerr]

if you don't want paradise then you want hell. but you are saying you don't want paradise but don't like why hell is created. thats a contradiction Kerr.

and hell is painfull more than it is disgusting.

Only if you accept the permise it has to be either or. I don´t. And hell is as disgusting as it is painful.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

yep, incorrect. The point in creating us is not just salvation. There is a higher and more noble reason for our creation.

Which is what, in your view?

You are assuming alot of things, my friend. If you had a previous experience with Christianity or a sort of background, that doesn't mean you can assume that my beliefs are the same as what you think they are. You need to have a fresh start with me in order to understand what i'm talking about.

AFAICT, I'm only assuming what you yourself agreed to (especially the bolded part):

He is not *trying* anything. He gave human beings the choice whether to save themselves or not, because an all-powerful God doesn't just *try*, he would just *do it*.

And I'm trying not to bring invalid assumptions into our discussion, but I can only base my understanding of your beliefs on what you tell me.

Did you understand what the verses i have posted for you earlier were talking about?

Did you even read them carefully as i asked you to do so?

If you really did, you wouldn't have asked such a question. If you still didn't, please go back and read them, then tell me what do you understand.

I read them and came to an understanding of them, but it seems my understanding is different from yours. Perhaps if you answer my question from your point of view, I'd get an understanding that's closer to yours.

 

[McBell]

You misunderstood my post. I didn't ask him to believe in God. My point was that because he doesn't believe in God, so maybe he still don't know the nature of God whom i'm talking about. A Jew, a Christian, etc might have an idea of the nature of God and his qualities. An Atheist might not know what is God because he doesn't believe that God exist on the first place.

So, what he can do is to study how Muslims "for instance" describe and perceive God, then from there, he can start making an informed decision about whether God is just or not.

Which Muslims?
Seems to me that the god you refer to is a different god than the one that Fatihah refers to.

So which version of god is the "real" god?

 

[McBell]

if you don't want paradise then you want hell.

I disagree.
I want neither.

but you are saying you don't want paradise but don't like why hell is created. thats a contradiction Kerr.

It is only a contradiction if you are of the mind that there are only two choices.
If you have decided to limit yourself to merely those two options, then I can understand why you think it is a contradiction.
However, I for one do not put such limits on it.

 

[Kerr]

exactly.
if the parents don't punish/educate the child then when he grows up he will be a bad person and end up in jail or commiting crime all his life.

Which is not what I meant. Will assume Allah exist now.

When a parent punish a child and the kind of punishment causes the child to get worse or turn their back on the parent, something must change. That is what Allah is doing by doing it the way he does. That is the effect of Hell on many people. Now, if you take a troubled child and let the right people take care of him or her, it can actually help. No one is hopeless, you just have to find out what works for the child in question. Allah doesn´t do this. Also parents have limitations, there are rules, they cannot do anything to their child and they do not own the child. Their job is the job of a guardian and caretaker, not the one of a owner. Which is why the logic behind stating that if Allah is a tyrant, so is all parents, is flawed.

Also, hell is not comparable to jail. Jail is more then just mindless and sadistic punishment, it has to do with keeping dangerous people away from the society as well, and it also has to do with hopefully rehabilitating the people in question. A jail has limitations, prisoners always have rights and cannot be treated in some ways. The same cannot be said about hell.

same thing that hapens to us. why do you think Allah causes the natural dissassters? why does Allah cause anything unless it was to benefit us?

You mean like the guy who was in a flood and lost his wife (found her dead washed up in a tree if I remember correctly) and children? Very... benificial.http://www.religiousforums.com/arti...doms-behind-the-disasters-and-the-calamities/

All troubles, calamities; briefly anything seeming outwardly unfavorable and evil are actually favorable and pleasing.

Wrong. Everything has two sides. That the good side exist does not negate the bad side, and sometimes it is not even worth to compare the good side with the bad because it is just too bad. Sometime something bad is required for something good... but sometimes it would just have been best if the bad thing never happened in the first place.

Likewise; for Allah is the merciful, He gives warnings to them through sufferings in order to prevent them from making mistakes and committing sins.

That is not mercy.

Allah gives diseases and sufferings to His servants in order to bring them closer to Himself

Somehow it seems cruel to kill of children to bring their parents closer to him.

A man forgetting the existence of Allah (swt) and his responsibilities of being a servant, just lives for this ephemeral world. So ignoring the death, he considers his mortal life as the everlasting. But when death comes, he has nothing in his hands to take with him to the hereafter.

Not much to say other then that this is just wrong.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I disagree.
I want neither.

You don't?

The idea of an eternity in paradise sounds very nice to me. It's only false promises of paradise that I don't like so much.

 

[McBell]

You don't?

The idea of an eternity in paradise sounds very nice to me. It's only false promises of paradise that I don't like so much.

One mans paradise is another mans hell

I want neither.

 

[TashaN]

Which is what, in your view?

God created us to be his vicegerents on earth as this verse clearly state.

[30] Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? Whilst we do celebrate Thy praise and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." (Quran 2:30).

Human beings have the tendency toward learning fast and to increase their knowledge with time as well, all through the qualities that God gave to us which makes as unique in specific way that no other creature ever had. He also gave us the right to choose whether to be good or bad as well.

That's a summary for a long post i have made before. To read my full response please read post # 208 & 209 at the link below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...3-quran-infallable-word-god-6.html#post578111

AFAICT, I'm only assuming what you yourself agreed to (especially the bolded part):

And I'm trying not to bring invalid assumptions into our discussion, but I can only base my understanding of your beliefs on what you tell me.

I read them and came to an understanding of them, but it seems my understanding is different from yours. Perhaps if you answer my question from your point of view, I'd get an understanding that's closer to yours.

You don't want to make any effort to understand the verses huh?

Just read the part where Satan speaks of human beings then God answer him by stating that those who believe in him would enter paradise and those who follow Satan would enter hell.

 

[TashaN]

Which Muslims?
Seems to me that the god you refer to is a different god than the one that Fatihah refers to.

So which version of god is the "real" god?

The version written in the Quran which ALL Muslims know about.

 

[Gharib]

I disagree.
I want neither.

then enjoy life for as long as you are going to live it. you will end up in one of them, whether you want to or not.

It is only a contradiction if you are of the mind that there are only two choices.
If you have decided to limit yourself to merely those two options, then I can understand why you think it is a contradiction.
However, I for one do not put such limits on it.

we're on the same page for once, Mestemia. i'll frubal you for it.

they are the only 2 options. well apart from the 3'rd option i guess where one goes to hell for a set amount of time and then is taken to paradise for eternity. but thats still 2 options.

but it is not 2 options if you do not believe in god. thats a different story. thats just one option then, this life and thats it. you probably don't believe in any kind of afterlife, do you?

 

[McBell]

The version written in the Quran which ALL Muslims know about.

Then why do so many Muslims paint so many different pictures of "The version written in the Quran"?

 

[McBell]

then enjoy life for as long as you are going to live it. you will end up in one of them, whether you want to or not.

Says you.
But you are flat out wrong.

I know that you cannot let yourself understand it, but it is true none-the-less.

on the same page for once, Mestemia. i'll frubal you for it.

I am not trying to be mean or anything, but...
Somehow, I seriously doubt it...

they are the only 2 options. well apart from the 3'rd option i guess where one goes to hell for a set amount of time and then is taken to paradise for eternity. but thats still 2 options.

You assume to much.
LIke your assumption that your deity not only exists, but is the one and only true deity.
Your assumptions just continue to snowball from there.

but it is not 2 options if you do not believe in god. thats a different story. thats just one option then, this life and thats it.

You seem determined to remain ignorant of anything outside your own beliefs....

That is why you cannot see that there are more than the 2 (or 3) options you are so determined to limit it to.

you probably don't believe in any kind of afterlife, do you?

I have not settled into a position on that particular quandary.

 

[Gharib]

Says you.
But you are flat out wrong.

I know that you cannot let yourself understand it, but it is true none-the-less.

no, says Allah.
enlighten me Mestemia. let me try to understand it.

I am not trying to be mean or anything, but...
Somehow, I seriously doubt it...

what, i did frubal you. :slap:

You assume to much.
LIke your assumption that your deity not only exists, but is the one and only true deity.
Your assumptions just continue to snowball from there.

same with you. you assume that Allah doesn't exist and you have convinced yourself of it. hence you do not believe in Allah nor any other god.

You seem determined to remain ignorant of anything outside your own beliefs....

you assume too much. ok tell me of things that are outside my beliefs so i can learn about them.

That is why you cannot see that there are more than the 2 (or 3) options you are so determined to limit it to.

oh, you were talking about all the other religions, hence the other options. i do not believe in the other religions because i do not doubt mine. you on the other hand do doubt your belief that god doesn't exist. unless i'm wrong and it only apperas that way. am i wrong?

I have not settled into a position on that particular quandary.

of course, science doesn't speak about the after life because there is no evidence of a soul, let alone a totally new world.