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Question for the Non-Muslims

McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
eselam said:
you'll see.
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I seriously doubt it.

eselam said:
so you do believe in (a) god?
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I believe in the possibility of (a) god.

eselam said:
. agnostics and atheists are pretty much like a brother and sister.
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Wow.
With all the threads that explain the difference between the two and you still think them the same?

eselam said:
we will see about that.
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Perhaps.
Perhaps not.

eselam said:
understandable.
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Thank you.
 
Gharib

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Mestemia said:
I have learned a long time ago that the Muslims here on RF do a much better job at not answering questions than they do at actually answering them.

That is why I prefer to go to the local Mosque.
At least there they do not pile on the bull **** like one gets here.
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it's no ones fault that you can't accept the answer given to you.
 
McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
eselam said:
it's no ones fault that you can't accept the answer given to you.
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Since the question was never answered, merely side stepped and avoided, there is no acceptance or denial of it, now is there?

I mean, if all that run around is good enough for you, then so be it.
For me, it is not an answer.

But then I want actual answers, not the atypical religious run around.
 
DarkSun

DarkSun

:eltiT
eselam said:
thats your choice.
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No, it's not.

Could you choose to suddenly stop believing in Allah (swt) and believe in, say, the Hindu gods instead?

Could you choose to stop believing in all gods whatsoever?

Belief isn't a matter of choice.
 
DarkSun

DarkSun

:eltiT
I just read the first three pages and I'm really confused!

Some of the things people have said seem to completely contradict with some other stuff I've been told (on this forum, I might add).

It doesn't seem like atheism nor agnosticism have a set definition. Or maybe I'm missing something?

I'll make another thread.
 
Gharib

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Mestemia said:
No.
It is the picture you paint.
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what are you blaming me for? I'm not painting any pictures i'm telling you what Allah has told us. if you don't like it then thats your choice. i have made mine too.

What god?
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the one of whom you said "I believe in the possibility of (a) god."

or maybe you don't believe in a god per se but you just believe that a limitless creator being exists. am i right?



Here's one:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/88348-agnostics-weak-atheists.html
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I'll read a bit from it, but i'll keep an eye out for Darksun's thread.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
TashaN said:
I agree with you. In order to understand what i'm trying to explain, you need to make lots of assumptions. Nevertheless, i don't see how we would be able to seriously discuss this issue in a productive manner without making some assumptions.

If we didn't make some assumptions, this conversation will never end, because i'll have to prove for you that God, angels, Satan, etc exist, and that the story of Adam and Eve is not a fiction, and that Quran is the word of God, and we can go on and on and on with endless circles of arguments which will splash over the place aimlessly.

So how you want us to go? with the assumptions or without?

Do you prefer to start some one-on-one debate about some topics which we can't cover here?

I'm ok with anything you suggest we should do.
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I'm fine with assuming a few things for the purposes of discussion, as long as we're being clear on what those assumptions are. So far, I've been trying to take these things as given:

- God exists
- the text of the Quran (though not necessarily any particular interpretation of that text) is the word of God.

However, I should probably point out that this doesn't necessarily make the Quran true. For instance, if the Quran were to say "God said 'I am good'", I'm not going to question that God did say this; however, depending on context, I might not accept that God must have been telling the truth.

We can make more assumptions if you want, but I think the more that we make, the less value the discussion will have (from my point of view, anyhow). Pretty much the only thing that I refuse to accept as an initial assumption is that God is good, since whether God is good is the central question. If we just assume that, there's no point in discussing anything further here.
 
McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
eselam said:
what are you blaming me for? I'm not painting any pictures i'm telling you what Allah has told us. if you don't like it then thats your choice. i have made mine too.
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I am not "blaming" you of anything.

"the picture you paint" is a phrase that roughly means "that which you describe"


eselam said:
the one of whom you said "I believe in the possibility of (a) god."
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I think it is possible, however unlikely, that a god could possibly exist.
In fact, I think it is just as possibly that ALL the painted gods exist.

eselam said:
or maybe you don't believe in a god per se but you just believe that a limitless creator being exists. am i right?
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Um, no.
I do not believe either way.
Though I am not closed minded about it either.
 
Luminous

Luminous

non-existential luminary
eselam said:
no one needs to die to know if Allah is really there. we can see that while being alive. hence i'm a muslim.
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hence i am not a muhammudist. :) if you read the Gnostic texts the creator was a demon, it made everything seam beautiful to trick us into worshiping him.
 
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DarkSun

DarkSun

:eltiT
eselam said:
yes it is.



yes



yes
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Then convert to Bobby Henderson's made up religion. Flying Spaghetti Monsterism is the only true way. All non-believers and spagnostics shall never know the true beauty of his Great Noodly Appendage.

You don't want to do this? Why not?

Could it be that you have a certain perception of reality that isn't going to go away merely because of choice?

It's all well and good to say that you could convert to Flying Spaghetti Monster-ism. But I seriously doubt you're willing to do it. You don't believe in that reality, so why would you?

Belief is not a matter of choice.



eselam said:
yes it is. but the first choice you have to make is:
"do i want to be guided"

so do you?
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You poor, lost soul...

Here, come with me and I shall show you how the Christian God is the true God. You can save yourself from damnation, but the question is... do you want to be guided?
 
Luminous

Luminous

non-existential luminary
not4me said:
he he he :D

Interesting thread! I read some of Faisal's posts and I really like them, well done :clapFaisal...gazak Allahu khayran!!
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that is likely because you hold his anti-agnostic point of view. however, he lacked in being able to be fully forthcomming. idol scripture is always hard to protect.
 
TashaN

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Luminous said:
who is God? if it is all-powerful, how does it have a further definition? if allah is good, he is not all powerfull. if allah is wise, why cant he be dumb? is it beyond his power? why can't it be powerless? is it beyond its power? why cant it manifest itself as multiply gods(trinatiy and polytheism), does it not have that power? plus: how do i go to hell for being pure at heart and NOT wanting to follow Satan. I SEE satan in ALL idol scriptures. God hates Idols, thus i do not believe or worship them. if Allah is real then, according to Qu'ran, only Satanists will go to hell? is that your interpretation? or does "following Satan" imply that "anything that is NOT Muhammudist Islam is satanic"? go on, infer. that is all one can do with idol scripture. from that verse you SHOULD infer that only Satanists go to hell. but there are other versus that demean non-muhammudist Islamists as unwilling followers of satan, right? thus, isn't eternal punishment unjust? i didn't have eternity to decide to go againt agnostic truth and with Muhammudist Islam.
I would also beg this of The God in Muhammudist Islam: when did i ask to be created? when did i accept the conditions of creation? for this i do not remember; because i do not remember, i must have never asked. i am now only what i remember, thus it is True that i never asked to be created. this me, the one that thinks while it lives in this existance, never asked to be created. Thus i can only assume i was created against my will, being as what i am now does not remember agreeing to the contract with that entity. it is unfair, that i was created to suffer in hell. for this was the only truth i would find, and the creator according to rumor and hearsay and idol scripture already knew i would suffer in hell, unwillingly. UNFAIR.
so the truth is God is fair and each will be judged by their standards. atheists will likely cease to exist, and theists will experience their respective believed fates. That or there is no afterlife for anyone, whether a creater existst that would creat us only for a limited time is possible. stop being greedy and accept the facts of existance. Thank God you are alive, or dont. you probably didn't ask to be created either. anything is possible, perhaps God will only send anti-agnostic atheists to the only heaven. anything is possible. we are all agnostic.
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Who is God? This is God.

 1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him. (Quran 112:1-4)
 
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