Of course there would be no point in our discussion if we have assumed that God is good, obviously.
I think we can go on now.
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Question for the Non-Muslims
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
Of course there would be no point in our discussion if we have assumed that God is good, obviously.
I think we can go on now.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Ok, going back to your golden question now.
God said in the Quran:
39. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
40. "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
41. ((Allah)) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.
42. "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."
43. And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!
44. To it are seven gates: for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.
45. The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).
46. (Their greeting will be): "Enter ye here in peace and security." (Quran 15:39-46)
You can see above a conversation between God and Satan. Those who want to read the rest of the verses can refer to post # 498.
Satan said that he will lead humanity astray from the way of God, because he doesn't want to be punished alone, but he acknowledged that he won't be able to do that to those who obey Allah, who are sincere.
God then said that those who follow Satan will enter hell with him, a very sever punishment, as it appear to us.
But why? and let me quote you here ...
the severity of a just punishment would be proportional to the severity of the crime.
What is the crime here? Following Satan.
The punishment? already been set by Allah, hell.
Is it a just punishment? It depends on how you look at it.
From your point of view, you are just practicing your own freedom, but the fact is that, people are either following God, or Satan, whether they know that or not. You do have freedom but there are other factors which can enhance your chances to either follow God or Satan, and you are absolutely free to choose what to accept and what to reject. God's guidance can come to you in so many ways, and you have the right to either accept it or reject it, and the same with Satan, for he is in a constant enmity with human beings, sons and daughters of Adam. He will give some thoughts to some people and it can be in the form of denial, ego, selfishness, arrogance and stubbornness, etc. Satan will whisper all of that and more to the ears of human beings.
So, they have preferred to listen to Satan instead of God !!!
It's also about the promise God has made, that those who follow him will enter heaven, and those who don't will enter hell. Then, it's up to you and me to choose where to go.
Is it clearer to you now?
God said in the Quran:
39. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
40. "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
41. ((Allah)) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.
42. "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."
43. And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!
44. To it are seven gates: for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.
45. The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).
46. (Their greeting will be): "Enter ye here in peace and security." (Quran 15:39-46)
You can see above a conversation between God and Satan. Those who want to read the rest of the verses can refer to post # 498.
Satan said that he will lead humanity astray from the way of God, because he doesn't want to be punished alone, but he acknowledged that he won't be able to do that to those who obey Allah, who are sincere.
God then said that those who follow Satan will enter hell with him, a very sever punishment, as it appear to us.
But why? and let me quote you here ...
the severity of a just punishment would be proportional to the severity of the crime.
What is the crime here? Following Satan.
The punishment? already been set by Allah, hell.
Is it a just punishment? It depends on how you look at it.
From your point of view, you are just practicing your own freedom, but the fact is that, people are either following God, or Satan, whether they know that or not. You do have freedom but there are other factors which can enhance your chances to either follow God or Satan, and you are absolutely free to choose what to accept and what to reject. God's guidance can come to you in so many ways, and you have the right to either accept it or reject it, and the same with Satan, for he is in a constant enmity with human beings, sons and daughters of Adam. He will give some thoughts to some people and it can be in the form of denial, ego, selfishness, arrogance and stubbornness, etc. Satan will whisper all of that and more to the ears of human beings.
So, they have preferred to listen to Satan instead of God !!!
It's also about the promise God has made, that those who follow him will enter heaven, and those who don't will enter hell. Then, it's up to you and me to choose where to go.
Is it clearer to you now?
Cutting to the meat of the matter...
Whatever you think a just punishment would be, it is finite. You may say that it's good, right and just to make the person suffer horribly for his crime, but at some point, no more suffering is justified. Depending on your personal inclinations, this might be after an hour, a few days, or maybe a decade, but whatever it is, at some point, even the most vengeful person would say "okay - he's had enough".
Now... how bad is the "crime" of following Satan? Is it worse than murder? A hundred times worse? A million? Whatever your answer, the same thing applies: at some point, even if it's after a billion years, we reach a point where justice is satisfied and the person has had the limit of what can be considered a just punishment.
But Hell keeps going. Once justice has been done, the person continues to suffer in torment... over and over and over forever. No matter what awful crime a person commits in life, since human beings are finite creatures, it is a finite crime. But any infinite punishment for a finite crime would, by definition, exceed the limits of what is good, right and just by an infinite amount.
I've heard Christians make excuses for this by saying that Hell is just "separation from God", or that our default situation is suffering and God isn't punishing people so much as failing to reward them, but it seems to me that these explanations wouldn't work for you. The Quran passages you quoted make it clear that in the Quranic view, Hell is a special place specifically created by God expressly for the purpose of inflicting punishment.
Let me put it this way: hopefully we can both agree that murder of an innocent person is evil. What would be a just punishment for such a murder?
Whatever you think a just punishment would be, it is finite. You may say that it's good, right and just to make the person suffer horribly for his crime, but at some point, no more suffering is justified. Depending on your personal inclinations, this might be after an hour, a few days, or maybe a decade, but whatever it is, at some point, even the most vengeful person would say "okay - he's had enough".
Now... how bad is the "crime" of following Satan? Is it worse than murder? A hundred times worse? A million? Whatever your answer, the same thing applies: at some point, even if it's after a billion years, we reach a point where justice is satisfied and the person has had the limit of what can be considered a just punishment.
But Hell keeps going. Once justice has been done, the person continues to suffer in torment... over and over and over forever. No matter what awful crime a person commits in life, since human beings are finite creatures, it is a finite crime. But any infinite punishment for a finite crime would, by definition, exceed the limits of what is good, right and just by an infinite amount.
I've heard Christians make excuses for this by saying that Hell is just "separation from God", or that our default situation is suffering and God isn't punishing people so much as failing to reward them, but it seems to me that these explanations wouldn't work for you. The Quran passages you quoted make it clear that in the Quranic view, Hell is a special place specifically created by God expressly for the purpose of inflicting punishment.
But that doesn't really address the key issue in my mind. What you describe only explains that God will do what he said he would do. This doesn't do anything to establish that he's right to do it.
Not really.Is it clearer to you now?
Let me address your question from a comprehensive point of view.
I talked about certain assumptions earlier in my previous posts, because i knew that as we go on in the discussion, some answers would require an acknowledgment of certain attributes of God. I won't ask you to assume God is Good because we already agreed that it won't be fruitful, but i'll speak of something else which you are already familiar with.
You know, i can clearly see your point now, and i would certainly have agreed with you that God would appear to be less merciful and less just if he had punished us for something finite.
The *finite* crime which you speak of is NOT finite. God knows our past, present, and future, but he is out of space and time. God said in the Quran that those who will enter hell deserve to be there forever because he KNOWS that even if they have lived forever, they would still be the same. So he is punishing their infinite ever sinning soul, but not only their finite sin on earth.
This issue has not went un-mentioned in the Quran.
27. If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with the Fire! They will say: "Would that we were but sent back! Then would we not reject the signs of our Lord, but would be amongst those who believe!"
28. Yea, in their own (eyes) will become manifest what before they concealed. But if they were returned, they would certainly relapse to the things they were forbidden, for they are indeed liars.
29. And they (sometimes) say: "There is nothing except our life on this earth, and never shall we be raised up again."
30. If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with their Lord! He will say: "Is not this the truth?" They will say: "Yea, by our Lord!" He will say: "Taste ye then the penalty, because ye rejected Faith."
31. Lost indeed are they who treat it as a falsehood that they must meet Allah,- until on a sudden the hour is on them, and they say: "Ah! woe unto us that we took no thought of it"; for they bear their burdens on their backs, and evil indeed are the burdens that they bear?
32. What is the life of this world but play and amusement? But best is the home in the hereafter, for those who are righteous. Will ye not then understand?
(Quran 6:27-32)
Just the same as someone who is facing death, he would say ...
99. (In Falsehood will they be) Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),-
100. "In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up.
(Quran 23:99-100)
You know, although some analogies are good to start a discussion in religion just to establish a solid ground of understanding, but it fails sometimes to reveal the whole truth.
You can use any type of analogy but the problem is that it will not exceed our human experience. We are very limited because there is no one like God. For example, a judge would punish too, but he can't read people mind or see inside their hearts, so he can't not make some speculations regarding the future of a specific criminal for instance, unlike God, who knows what is in our heart, and he knows what we reveal and what we conceal. God doesn't need to wait for us to sin infinitely to punish us, because he already knows our future, our heart, everything.
So, it's an infinite punishment for an infinite crime.
On the other hand, there are other opinions which might be shared by other Muslims, and one of the opinions about hell is that it won't be eternal, but i disagree with that opinion, that's why i didn't mention it.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
If I might interject...
I must say, TashaN that you make God sound absolutely horrid. What your last few posts outline is a being that creates shoddy work and seeks to destroy said work. In my view, it is unreasonable to blame to product without the creator of said product taking a very large chunk of the blame for creating a defective product. Rather than making the Islamic viewpoint sound reasonable you are simply making it even more unreasonable. What is breathtaking is that you probably don't see, and perhaps cannot see, how that is.
maro
muslimah
I'd like to add to what Tashan has said :
That it's not uncommon for us to pass a test that only takes half an hour...and then deal with its lifelong consequences...be it joining a specific college ,job..etc.
Why doesn't anyone claim that this is unjust ? and that the duration of the test has to be equal to the duration of the consequences we have to deal with ?
Simply ,because we don't need more than half an hour to test what we want to test....be it a cetain IQ level , the ability to work hard and abide by a schedule..etc ?
it's true that the test is 'finite'....but it reveals a permenant nature of the one being tested....and thus its consequences are proportional to this 'permenant nature' and not to the duration of the test
That it's not uncommon for us to pass a test that only takes half an hour...and then deal with its lifelong consequences...be it joining a specific college ,job..etc.
Why doesn't anyone claim that this is unjust ? and that the duration of the test has to be equal to the duration of the consequences we have to deal with ?
Simply ,because we don't need more than half an hour to test what we want to test....be it a cetain IQ level , the ability to work hard and abide by a schedule..etc ?
it's true that the test is 'finite'....but it reveals a permenant nature of the one being tested....and thus its consequences are proportional to this 'permenant nature' and not to the duration of the test
Then I take it you wouldn´t have anything against if the old Norse religion proved to be right and you are sent to their version of hell for not dying in battle? Since it means your "permanent nature" makes you belong there.
(Note that I am not sure if their "hell" is the same "hell" as you think of, not sure what it is, but from the little I read about it to go to "paradise" you have to die in battle.)
This still doesn't solve the problem. If God were to simply eradicate the person's soul, then the sin would be finite. Even in your interpretation, the sin is infinite because God decides that it should be.
Also, I think it's important to introduce another element that I think is a necessary part of a just punishment: a just purpose.
In human terms, punishment is used to correct a person by either rehabilitating the person or deterring them from future crime.
If, as you point out, the Quran says that the people in Hell would "certainly relapse to the things they were forbidden", then this says to me that Hell is completely ineffective at either deterrence or rehabilitation.
However, even if it didn't fail in these regards, these sorts of purposes of punishment are intended to make a purpose fit for re-entry into society. But in Hell, re-entry is not a possibility. There is nothing left for the person to be rehabilitated for.
So... that's another thing that's missing from the idea of Hell: a just reason to punish the hell-bound. The suffering of those in Hell accomplishes nothing. It doesn't even satisfy God's blood-lust, since no amount of suffering from a person is ever considered enough.
I'm fine with the idea that God's knowledge is unlimited. I still think that even when we take this into account, Hell is still an unjust concept.
Well, no. Even in what you present, it's only an "infinite crime" because of the choice of God to make it infinite. The "infinite" nature of the crime is a direct result of God's own choices.
Fair enough.
Because in these cases, the consequences are only consequences. They aren't a "punishment" for the "crime" of having failed the test.
Also, hopefully, the test has a direct bearing on the consequence. For instance, it's perfectly reasonable to not admit someone to a university program once he's shown, through his results on his entrance exam, that he's not ready for it. However, it would be unreasonable and IMO unjust to, say, reject a person from university because he failed a juggling test.
no-body
Well-Known Member
But God is not a university, God is not only the test taker he is the teacher, the mother and father that prepares you for the test, he also created the test, the answers, etc. So all blame at least from a human perspective does fall upon him.
If He wants to punish me to eternal hell fire because I question this well He made me the way I am, quite frankly I would gladly burn with satan for all eternity to spite this unjust God that is being described.
I think Islam and Christianity can be beautiful religions and I've dabbled in both; worshiping and prostrating myself to God I can get behind. But as soon as the spiritual pornography comes in; the "us vs them" judgments of the quran and the bible I realize these religions are not and never will be for me. I hope people can at least try to understand that what for them makes them want to follow repulses others.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Unfortunately, any way this is explained, the idea is just not reasonable. IF a god creates beings that can fail his lofty standards it is not their problem. The problem originates in the design and responsibility for the design, by default, falls back on the creator. It is God who is the one that should have to serve time in his own Hell for making a slipshod product.
Kenect2
Member
Expanding on YmirGF's idea:
For a moment, I imagine myself to be a creator of something special. This thing that I have created is capable of doing good and evil. It does something evil, so I decide to send it to a lake of fire to burn for eternity.
That doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If I made something and it committed evil, then I would wonder what I did wrong and I would try to fix it. I don't see any point in horrific punishments.
For a moment, I imagine myself to be a creator of something special. This thing that I have created is capable of doing good and evil. It does something evil, so I decide to send it to a lake of fire to burn for eternity.
That doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If I made something and it committed evil, then I would wonder what I did wrong and I would try to fix it. I don't see any point in horrific punishments.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
When one considers that beings as insignificant as ourselves can see behaviors beyond such attitudes I am puzzled why some folks would imagine that a god would not. Surely a god that would do such a thing or allow such a thing, for any of its creations, is a god that is of an unsound mind. It is little wonder why Muslims tell us to fear Allah.
Luminous
non-existential luminary
So God is God? and the Quran says HE is male and has limits? he lives forever, but he doesn't have the ability to manifest as a man. yet jesus was born of a virgin by God's will, i call that begettething. and nothing is compareable to this male diety? that really tells me nothing. God is a lone, uncompareable, limited god? so x = bx? b being equal to lone, uncomparabable, and limited; x being the god variable? so x = bx... which means x = x/b... which means bx= x/b. which means that (b^2)x = x. which means?
Response: Not a little wonder at all. For with love comes fear. For we all fear the idea of hurting or upsetting one we love.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
On the contrary. One who loves and who is loved cannot hurt the other. If you are fearful that you could hurt a loved one then you trust neither yourself or your love for the other. Upsetting another is a momentary trifle of little lasting consequence as those who truly love quickly overcome these upsets because of their deep love. Fear has no place in such relationships and is a perversion of love.
Well, that's why I like the other opinion in the Islamic thought that says hell is not eternal. Eternity of hell, Penguin, is a debatable issue and there are two different opinions regarding it. One that Tashan has presented which is more famous between Muslims and the other one that says hell will come to an end after all its dwellers become purified from their disbelief and sin. They drive their evidence from the Qur'an and the sayings of some companions of the prophet. But also reasoning says that if the punishment in this life is intended to refine the soul from its evil and discipline it, and God of this life is the same God of the hereafter and His mercy is in this life and the hereafter and even His mercy in the hereafter is much greater and He doesn't punish His creatures aimlessly; "What can Allah gain by your punishment, if ye are grateful and ye believe?" Qur'an, then there must be a wisdom behind the punishment of hell and it must be for His creatures' interests and then hell must be a means for a purpose and not a purpose itself and when it carries out its purpose, it comes to an end. Moreover, Allah's mercy encompasses every thing; as angels said "Our Lord! Thy Reach is over all things, in Mercy and Knowledge". Qur'an and thus His mercy must then encompass those who are punished in hell, and if they stayed there forever, it would mean His mercy didn't reach them.
I tried to convey that opinion which I find it beautiful and we can't say for sure what will happen but what I am sure of is that Allah is the Just and the Most Merciful.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Sure we fear upsetting those we love, but with Allah there is the additional fear of the horrible, eternal torture that has been prepared for unbelievers. That is the focus of all the Islamic texts quoted in the OP.
The glee with which the torture is described in the OP, how the wicked, stupid, lying, disobedient non-Muslims will one day get their just desserts, and how exhilirating this will be for Allah and his followers, borders on the pornographic.
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Mr Spinkles
Mr
Thanks for sharing that not4me that's very interesting.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
The test of course makes no sense to begin with.... (1) if God knows everything then he already knows the outcome of any test, (2) even if he doesn't know everything, if God is all-powerful he could figure out the outcome without even bothering with a test, (3) people can't have a "permanent nature" unless God put it there to begin with, (4) they also can't have a "permanent nature" if they have free will, maybe they will change their mind tomorrow but they are hit by a bus and die a non-believer, and finally (5) it's not a test of goodness but only a test of credulity (i.m.o. of course).maro said:
The ONLY thing that makes perfect sense about the test is that the idea of a judgment day became popular along the busy trade routes around Mesopotamia, where religions like Manichaeism were springing up which blended Christianity and Judaism and Zoroastrianism and local religions, for hundreds of years, and that the idea of a test can be very persuasive.
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