Physics is something which you can do experiment on, but spirituality can't be measured in labs, my friend
Not everything in this life can be proven in labs. Human beings still know nothing except a drop of water of knowledge and truth about this life.
You say we know very little, and I agree, I am not the one claiming to know things about the mind of God, what he knows, why he cares about this but not that, what tests he has prepared and why, how we should feel about him, what he wants from us, etc.
I agree that spirituality cannot be measured in a lab, that is what we would expect if spirituality was a subjective mental experience. My point was that rituals and affirmations are not what we expect from an objective, free field of inquiry.
Furthermore, even without a laboratory we can examine the plain meaning of words....I believe you did not respond to this part of my post (# 381) about thought-crime:
"Fear the fire, which is prepared for the disbelievers."
[Ali'-Imran, 3: 131]
"Truly Hell is lying in wait- a destination for the transgressors."
[an-Naba, 78: 21-22]
(One’s rejection of faith is transgression against Allah and himself).
How is this not thought-crime? This is the very definition of thought-crime.
I said that this idea of hell is just the religious version of thought-crime and it constrains free thought. Don't you agree that a person is *more* liberated to think about a question, if that person is not threatened with punishment for arriving at the wrong conclusions?
Tashan said:
This will contradict with him by just. He is juts AND merciful, and you are still not aware of what God do to be called the most merciful.
You are saying it would be
unjust if disbelievers did not go to hell for eternity?
Even if it would be unjust, it would be more merciful. This conclusion seems to follow from the plain meaning of words.
Tashan said:
You had these thoughts before, and you think it's wrong to feel that way, because?
I wouldn't say it's wrong to feel that way, I'm not going to tell people how they have to feel, but I do think it's a mistake to interpret your personal feelings as evidence of an external reality. When I see an American flag I might feel patriotic, I feel that this is a beautiful, great country, it's not necessarily "wrong" to indulge in these feelings but they must be set aside, perhaps overcome, in order to achieve anything close to a realistic view of the U.S. The same is true of religion. Muslims would feel indescribable emotions that reaffirm their faith whether or not Islam was actually true, just like Mormons, Catholics, etc. These feelings are fine but they are not evidence of anything, to establish facts about the world we have to set aside a lot of emotions.
Tashan said:
So? does that make my belief in heaven and hell wrong?
No it just helps explain the only undeniable fact about heaven and hell, which is the fact that some cultures have believed in it.
Tashan said:
There is a huge difference between repeating blindly, and repeating after understanding the meaning of these words and why it's being repeated. I'm afraid you didn't capture yet the correct image of these actions.
Okay I concede that. But it is also true that there is a huge difference between "repeating after understanding the meaning of these words and why it's being repeated", and truly objective inquiry.
Tashan said:
If it was that critical as you have explained, God would have forced it on us, but he didn't.
I don't agree or disagree, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. Believing in God is "critical" yet you say God doesn't force it on us. Ergo, it is possible repetition could be "critical" but God wouldn't force it on us.
Tashan said:
For me, as i was growing up, i don't remember that i ever was taking part in any repetition rituals till i became older, and at one point in my life, i have stopped everything as you did, had gave myself sometime to know whether i'm on the right path or not till i reached to abandoning all types of rituals and all the beliefs i acquired before.
Religion has not become an interesting topic for me till i finished my search for the truth when i re-discovered Islam and has embraced it since then till now. To me, it was an informed decision, not something i just HAD to believe in, although i was born as a Muslim.
Individual results will vary of course, I am only saying that ritualistic affirmation is one factor that causes us to be biased. I am not saying that repetition forces us to do anything or determines the outcome in every individual case. But if you zoom out, and look at millions of people over thousands of years, you can see the huge effect. Surely you can't deny repetition has at least some influence on us? It's an observed fact of psychology.