Your position that being in Hell forever could be just because the "sin" would continue forever.
Sin is a matter of choice or action. If all our choices and actions end with death, then so does sin.
Death is just another state of our souls. The soul would leave the body and enter to a new stage, it is called "the life of barzakh". Ok, let me start from the beginning now not to confuse you.
In Islam, we believe that the soul will go through 3 stages:
1- This earthly life.
2- The Barzakh life. That's when we die, so we will stay at this stage till judgement day.
3- The after life. We will be resurrected where we will be able to regain our soul/body combination of living in the way we know it.
We can only work on the first life. On the Barzakh life we can't work anything either it was goodness or evil, but we will still be able to gain more deeds or more evil, based on the things we did in this life. If some people have dome lots of good things in life, they will be in a good condition in their graves and their deeds will increase if their work continue after their death. On the other hand, if someone did something evil and it causes so many people for instance to do the same thing, so he would be in a misrable statues and he will gain more bad deeds. Then on the hereafter, all type of work and all types of consequences will stop, and the only thing remaining would be judgemment.
Now, going back to your point, we human would think of your argument to be "logical" based on our relative and very limited experience in this life, because we are not aware yet about the second or third stage of living, although, many people believe in them, like me, and the Muslims who share the same views as me. But don't forget that we are talking about different set of rules, and compeletely different style of living.
The earthly judgement doesn't apply there. When i say totally different, i really mean it. In the hereafter, Allah will end something called "death", so no more death. We would remain on the last stage of our living, as God has designed it. No more death because we don't supposed to vanish from this universe unless God who brought us to this world want so.
When he created us, he decided that we will be there, forever, from the start, and that we will be sent on a temporary mission on earth, and based on the results will be admitted either to heaven, where our parents, Adam and Eve were living before, or to hell, where Satan would have succeed to drag us to it as the verses i have posted have shown.
So, i really can see your point clearly, that our sin should stop when we die, but that's not how it works, my friend. When we do something evil, we change something in this life, and when we change something, that means the life of others have changed because of it, that's why many people suffer in the Barzakh life, because there are consequences for what they have done in life, which affected the life of so many people on earth, and the bad deeds will increase because of that.
On the other hand, there are those who didn't harm anybody either physically or unphysically, and those people will still suffer in the Barzakh life for their disblief in God, but it will be nothing, compared to the punishment of the hereafter, and then on the heerafter they will be judged by God. Their sins stopped because God ended their life on earth, and has he allowed them to live for tousands of years, they would remain on their disbelief because God knows what we reveal and what we conceal, and he knows our past, present, and future. To him, it's not past, present, and future, because he is outside our limited space and time, that's why he can see it all.
Because he is merciful, he is showing us through a solid proof how we chose to live.
I think the most just situation would be one where the evil never happened in the first place.
So now you don't want God to create human beings who are capable of committing evil? Like angels you mean?
I can look at a hypothetical situation and consider its ethical and moral implications. When I look at the doctrine of Hell, I see something that, if it were true, would be deeply immoral and unjust that can't be reconciled with the idea of a good and loving God, even hypothetically....
I know the classes of people that the Quran and various other scriptures say will go to Hell. I know that you say that this will be God's doing. However, I've yet to hear a convincing (or IMO valid) argument why it's just to do this.
But you get my point, right? If my moral sense is deemed so good that it would be just for me to be punished for choosing the "evil" options in my life, then it stands to reason that it's generally reliable. And it's this same moral sense that tells me that the concept of Hell is immoral.
Well, you haven't exactly provided me with any good arguments that would change my mind.
Regarding my opinion of the moral sense issue, please refer to post # 549 at the link below:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...9239-question-non-muslims-15.html#post1837557
You know what, I don't claim to have that super golden answer which would make everybody shout
Aha! but maybe one day i would, who knows. For now, i'm just trying to share what i currently know about my religion, and i don't think i know better than this, at the moment about this specific thing you need me to answer for you.
Maybe those who have deep knowledge of the religion can give you the answer you are looking for, and they might not, but at least, they will know way better than me, because, believe it or not, i consider the information i personally have to be very basic and sometimes even shallow, compared to a well knowledgeable person in Islam.
That's why, if you are digging and looking for an answer that might
change your mind, i don't think a discussion board like ours can do so, but what our discussion might do is to shed a light on some concepts, and while keeping an open mind, you can search more in depth of the things we mentioned here through books, articles, etc.
I'm just being honest with you because i'm not seeing any further progress in our discussion about whether hell is just or not because you are judging the concept based on your set of morals, and i'm judging it based on mine, and what might be moral to me, might be immoral to others.
I have read many books about morality and the more i read, the more i believe how relative morality is.
Nevertheless, i'll keep contributing to the parts of our discussion where i think i can be more useful at.
Here's the question, then: how can a person perform "a conscious and willful act that violates a commandment of God or the right of a fellow being" if they don't know that this is what they're doing? Wilfulness requires knowledge.
For instance, I know full well that the Quran forbids the eating of pork; I eat it anyhow. But at the same time, I do not believe that the Quran comes from God at all. How can I wilfully "violate a commandment of God" when I don't believe that a particular commandment comes from God?
For that matter, how can I wilfully violate any commandment of a God I don't believe exists?
Well, that's totally another issue. You know, one scholar said, there is no greater sins after disbelief, which means that it doesn't matter whether you eat pork or not or do any of the things Muslims consider to be a sin if you are not a Muslim on the first place, because disbelief is a greater sin than any other types of sins, so, something minor like eating pork would be the least of your concerns as a non-Muslim.
That's why when one embrace Islam, he will be cleaned from all the sins he/she has committed as a non-Muslim, because as you said, if one doesn't know God, so he wouldn't be able to know, obviously, that what he is doing considered to be wrong or not.
17. Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.(Quran 4:17-18)
Ah. So then they're false... or at best half-true. Something like this would be more accurate:
(3) It's not that God has enforced this "nature" but it's that God knows that a specific person can never change no matter what... since God has decided not to do what would be needed to make the person change.
(4) God knows that for some people, even if they lived for thousands or millions of years, they won't change without the help that God refuses to give them, while others can.
Well, you will have to ask for his help first.
60. And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer): but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!" (Quran 40:60)
So simple, just call him. You shouldn't wait till he comes to you, because he doesn't need you. He cares about those who are humble enough to ask for his help and guidance. Those whom their arrogance prevent them from asking God, they don't deserve his help, guidance, and mercy.
If someone met a King of one of the great nations, and he wanted something from him, he will try to be humble enough to ask for it, instead of ranting about not getting anything from that King. Even if a King knew you need something but you feel so proud or so arrogant not to ask for it, he probably wouldn't give you that thing till you become humble enough to ask for it gently.
