Question for the Non-Muslims

[DarkSun]

Eselam, does Allah (swt) love us at all?

Because according you, He's going to condemn about 80% of the world population to some level of hell for not believing in Islam. Also according to you, He's been doing that ever since Islam began. If this is true, can you imagine how many people He's condemned to a brutal damnation? Hitler only tortured 6 million Jews to death. What you're describing is the eternal pain and anguish of billions! How can any loving being do that? If you're right, then Allah (swt) really is a God-awful tyrant.

 

[Metempsychosis]

as Allah says in the quran

Say: O you who disbelieve
To you be your religion and to me my religion
Quran 109:1,6

You take care of yourself & allah,we will take care of our gods.

Best wishes!

 

[Kerr]

there is a missunderstanding. Allah has created man with free will, we can choose to do good or bad, and Allah has revealed to us throughout history his laws that we as his creation should follow. he says if you do this and this and this, it will lead you to hell, if you do this and this and this it will lead you to paradise. so why do you guys choose hell over paradise? and why is Allah being blamed for our own actions and decisions? do you think that someone who obeys god is equal to someone who doesn't? do you honestly think you or me are equal to a rapist? why should criminals get a way with doing crimes when the rest of us are doing our best to conform to our societies laws, should we be equal?

Allah set the rules, he is to blame if they are unfair and wrong.

 

[DarkSun]

there is a missunderstanding. Allah has created man with free will, we can choose to do good or bad, and Allah has revealed to us throughout history his laws that we as his creation should follow. he says if you do this and this and this, it will lead you to hell, if you do this and this and this it will lead you to paradise. so why do you guys choose hell over paradise? and why is Allah being blamed for our own actions and decisions? do you think that someone who obeys god is equal to someone who doesn't? do you honestly think you or me are equal to a rapist? why should criminals get a way with doing crimes when the rest of us are doing our best to conform to our societies laws, should we be equal?

People who don't believe in Allah can be extremely nice, caring people. Most of them genuinely care for their fellow man, just like anyone else, it's just that they don't believe in Allah.

Is that really as bad as being a rapist? Disbelief doesn't hurt anyone in any way, shape or form, does it? How is it bad? Surely if Allah were as all knowing as He's made out to be, He would be able to empathise with an atheist and understand why they disbelieve. If Allah is going to get angry because they're doing what they feel is right, then He sounds rather petty to me, and nothing like the perfect being He's made out to be.

 

[RamaRaksha]

Greetings!
I read the description, and it's pretty much the old metaphoric description of hell as fire that's common in various older religions.
In fact, though, hell is not a place but the condition of spiritual remoteness from God (or Allah, if you prefer), as contrasted with Heaven, spiritual nearness to God! (And as such, these conditions exist here and now as well as after death, and each of us is in one or the other at each instant as a function of where our heads are at.)

And to answer your question, Allah doesn't send anyone to hell--rather, each individual may or may not do this to him- or herself depending on whether or not we properly fulfill our purpose in this life of acquiring the spiritual virtues we need both here and in the Next Life!

But the good news is that the Baha'i scriptures assure us that even for those who place themselves into the worst sort of spiritual situation, God in His infinite Love and Mercy will aid even these individuals eventually to draw nearer to Him, thus ultimately attaining Heaven!
Best!
Bruce

I thought the Bahai religion was different, looks like I was wrong, seems like any old King religion to me.

Do you realize that this - god doesn't send anyone to hell, they do it themselves.... - has been repeated by muslims & christians? Basically like a dog, if you don't follow orders, you go to hell. That's like the terrorist who puts a gun to your head and says if you don't do this i will shoot. You think that's a choice?

As for Heaven, are you saying the 9/11 terrorists might be enjoying themselves in heaven right now? Even after all these years the living victims are still dealing with the pain but they get to enjoy? How about the dead victims of 9/11? Do they come across these terrorists enjoying themselves and think of their loved ones down on earth still suffering? What kind of a justice is that?

 

[RamaRaksha]

ਕਵਨੁ ਨਰਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ਸੰਤਨ ਦੋਊ ਰਾਦੇ ॥
What is hell and what heaven, the poor things. The saints reject both of them.

ਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕਢਤੇ ਅਪਨੇ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੇ ॥੫॥
Through the grace of my Guru, I own not any obligation to either.

ਅਬ ਤਉ ਜਾਇ ਚਢੇ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਹੈ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਨੀ ॥
Now, I have mounted to the Master's Sustainer.

ਰਾਮ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਏਕ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥੬॥੩॥
The Pervading God and Kabir have become one and no one can distinguish between them.

source Sri Granth: Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Very nice. Please refrain from using the word Master - Guru is a Teacher, not a master. A Teacher can be challenged, a master must be obeyed. Blind obeidience reduces you to a subject/slave/servant.

 

[DarkSun]

I thought the Bahai religion was different, looks like I was wrong, seems like any old King religion to me.

Do you realize that this - god doesn't send anyone to hell, they do it themselves.... - has been repeated by muslims & christians? Basically like a dog, if you don't follow orders, you go to hell. That's like the terrorist who puts a gun to your head and says if you don't do this i will shoot. You think that's a choice?

As for Heaven, are you saying the 9/11 terrorists might be enjoying themselves in heaven right now? Even after all these years the living victims are still dealing with the pain but they get to enjoy? How about the dead victims of 9/11? Do they come across these terrorists enjoying themselves and think of their loved ones down on earth still suffering? What kind of a justice is that?

Wait a second. Just wait a second. First you were against Hell, and then you say that the 9/11 terrorists don't deserve Heaven, since that would be unjust? Where would they go instead? Hell?

Are you really against the Hell concept being described by Bruce?

 

[RamaRaksha]

Eselam, does Allah (swt) love us at all?

Because according you, He's going to condemn about 80% of the world population to some level of hell for not believing in Islam. Also according to you, He's been doing that ever since Islam began. If this is true, can you imagine how many people He's condemned to a brutal damnation? Hitler only tortured 6 million Jews to death. What you're describing is the eternal pain and anguish of billions! How can any loving being do that? If you're right, then Allah (swt) really is a God-awful tyrant.

A bit disappointed to see the low number of Atheists - I had hoped their numbers would be higher.

Does anyone realize that almost half the number of religions on the above list originated in Hindu India? Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism + Zoarashtrism was saved by India after they were hounded out of Iran. We can add Tibetan Buddhism to the list.

If the Buddha or any of the Gurus of the other religions had been born in Europe or Muslim lands they would have been tortured to death, their ideas burnt & these religions would not be in existence today. On the flip side if Europe or the Muslim lands had been Hindu, we would have far more religions in the world than the above list. Makes me wonder how many wonderful ideas were killed off.

 

[RamaRaksha]

Wait a second. Just wait a second. First you were against Hell, and then you say that the 9/11 terrorists don't deserve Heaven, since that would be unjust? Where would they go instead? Hell?

Are you really against the Hell concept being described by Bruce?

I guess you didn't read any of my previous posts. You do realize that heaven & hell are not the only options? There's Karma & Rebirth & if you are an atheist, you just disapper into nothing.

If you are against the concept of Hell, then heaven doesn't make any sense either. If hell doesn't exist then everyone would go to heaven - that does not seem right. Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa rubbing elbows with Hitler, Joe Schmo, Terrorists & Pedophiles?

Karma & rebirth is the only logical choice - you are reborn not to be punished but to be educated. A Hindu's goal is not a flesh-happy heaven but Moksha - a state of enlightenment, with God our Guru or Teacher on this journey. Rebirth also gives us a chance to take responsibility for our past mistakes, set things right if we can.

Take this example: You are driving and due to your negligence, you cause an accident. Your car is slightly damaged, it is dark and no one has seen you, do you run away? Or do you accept responsibility, stop and attend to the injured? Heaven & hell is running away whereas stopping and doing your duty is Karma & Rebirth.

 

[DarkSun]

RamaRaksha, I understand what you're saying and I can relate with you to an extent. The intention of my post was not to voice disagreement.

I was just commenting on your apparent dislike of hell-concepts, followed by your implications that it would be bad that the 9/11 terrorists got into heaven. For someone who seemingly doesn't like revenge fantasies, you seemed to place a lot of credence on the 9/11 terrorists receiving "justice" and not entering a heaven of any form.

In Bruce's depiction of heaven and hell, the 9/11 terrorists probably wouldn't be in Heaven until they are closer to God... which in your eyes, would be a good thing, wouldnt it?

 

[SpaceDuck]

there is a missunderstanding. Allah has created man with free will, we can choose to do good or bad, and Allah has revealed to us throughout history his laws that we as his creation should follow. he says if you do this and this and this, it will lead you to hell, if you do this and this and this it will lead you to paradise. so why do you guys choose hell over paradise?

I already explained this, Allah is responsible for the creation of hell and he is also responsible for the condemnation of people to hell, therefore I prefer to burn in hell than serve such a cruel god.

and why is Allah being blamed for our own actions and decisions?

I do not blame him for my own actions or decisions, I blame him for his.

do you think that someone who obeys god is equal to someone who doesn't?

Irrelevant, though keep in mind here that you're asking a person who considers obedience to such a god a bad trait. That said, yeah, I consider us equal, everyone have their virtues and vices.

do you honestly think you or me are equal to a rapist?

Once again, Irrelevant, I do not consider any human being beneath me.

why should criminals get a way with doing crimes when the rest of us are doing our best to conform to our societies laws, should we be equal?

Most criminals are a product of society, I do not think they should "get away with doing crimes", I merely consider hell a most unsuitable punishment.

 

[Gharib]

People who don't believe in Allah can be extremely nice, caring people. Most of them genuinely care for their fellow man, just like anyone else, it's just that they don't believe in Allah.

Allah forgives who he will and condems whom he wills. no one knows for sure whether a non muslims that does plenty of good work will go to hell or paradise. Allah is a just judge. i myself do not know if i will go to paradise or to hell, i will have to wait and see on the day of judgement if my deeds are good or bad.

Is that really as bad as being a rapist? Disbelief doesn't hurt anyone in any way, shape or form, does it? How is it bad? Surely if Allah were as all knowing as He's made out to be, He would be able to empathise with an atheist and understand why they disbelieve. If Allah is going to get angry because they're doing what they feel is right, then He sounds rather petty to me, and nothing like the perfect being He's made out to be.

see again a missunderstanding. Allah is not dependant on anything certainly not on our obedience. we choose for ourself so why are you blaming Allah for it?

 

[DarkSun]

Allah forgives who he will and condems whom he wills. no one knows for sure whether a non muslims that does plenty of good work will go to hell or paradise. Allah is a just judge. i myself do not know if i will go to paradise or to hell, i will have to wait and see on the day of judgement if my deeds are good or bad.

see again a missunderstanding. Allah is not dependant on anything certainly not on our obedience. we choose for ourself so why are you blaming Allah for it?

I'm not blaming Allah for my choice to have belief in a God that makes sense to me. I'm blaming Allah for damning more than 80% of anyone who has ever lived, just because they don't believe in Him. And if some people who aren't Muslim can get into paradise, then I'm blaming Allah for condemning anyone to any kind of torture for eternity. No one deserves that. No one.

But what I think you have to realise is that I don't believe in the God you're describing, so for that reason, I also don't believe I have anything to worry about in the afterlife.

 

[Gharib]

I already explained this, Allah is responsible for the creation of hell and he is also responsible for the condemnation of people to hell, therefore I prefer to burn in hell than serve such a cruel god.

humans are responsible for going to hell, Allah has explained that this path leads to hell and that path leads to paradise.

I do not blame him for my own actions or decisions, I blame him for his.

what might they be

Irrelevant, though keep in mind here that you're asking a person who considers obedience to such a god a bad trait. That said, yeah, I consider us equal, everyone have their virtues and vices.

Once again, Irrelevant, I do not consider any human being beneath me.

Most criminals are a product of society, I do not think they should "get away with doing crimes", I merely consider hell a most unsuitable punishment.

so why do you consider prison a suitable punishment?

 

[Gharib]

I'm not blaming Allah for my choice to have belief in a God that makes sense to me. I'm blaming Allah for damning more than 80% of anyone who has ever lived, just because they don't believe in Him. And if some people who aren't Muslim can get into paradise, then I'm blaming Allah for condemning anyone to any kind of torture for eternity. No one deserves that. No one.

But what I think you have to realise is that I don't believe in the God you're describing, so for that reason, I also don't believe I have anything to worry about in the afterlife.

i just said no one knows who will go to hell exactly appart from Allah, why are you bringing that 80% in the discussion? i don't know if anyone who isn't muslim will go to paradise, i'm only saying no one knows anything appart from Allah, i myself could end up in hell due to my choice of actions. and some people say that no one deserves any kind of punishment be it imprisonment or a fine, so who do we listen to?

 

[Gharib]

Heaven and Hell are creations of the human mind. Even if I was Muslim I probably wouldn't believe in either.
To answer your question however, I would not like to go to hell because suffering is not fun. I mean I think Hell would be a place of suffering....so I definitely wouldn't want to go there. I apologize, but I also find a god who would use the threat of Hell to be tyrannical. That is just my personal opinion of course.

you wouldn't be a muslim in the first place if you didn't believe in hell and paradise.

Allah is not threatining anyone. he only tells/warns us of where our actions will lead us. hell has different kinds of punishments for different kinds of actions/deeds, same with paradise. god is only telling us which path leads to where. how can that be a threat when he is in no need of us?

 

[RamaRaksha]

RamaRaksha, I understand what you're saying and I can relate with you to an extent. The intention of my post was not to voice disagreement.

I was just commenting on your apparent dislike of hell-concepts, followed by your implications that it would be bad that the 9/11 terrorists got into heaven. For someone who seemingly doesn't like revenge fantasies, you seemed to place a lot of credence on the 9/11 terrorists receiving "justice" and not entering a heaven of any form.

In Bruce's depiction of heaven and hell, the 9/11 terrorists probably wouldn't be in Heaven until they are closer to God... which in your eyes, would be a good thing, wouldnt it?

Are you reading my entire post or are you simply skimming it? You seem to be stuck in the concept of heaven & hell - as I have posted before there are other options available like Karma & Rebirth.

 

[DarkSun]

humans are responsible for going to hell, Allah has explained that this path leads to hell and that path leads to paradise.

What you're forgetting is that Islam isn't the only religion to claim this. And each religion has a different set of requirements for you to get into heaven and for hell. What sets Islam apart? How is it more likely to be closer to the truth than anything else?

The funny thing is that every Abrahamic religion, or denomination thereof, claims that we're choosing our fate in the after-life. Okay. Fair enough. Assuming we can choose what to believe, which one should be followed? And what if that choice turns out wrong? What a wasted existence. Personally, I think too many people are more focussed on the next life than the one they're currently in.

And besides, doing the right thing just to get into heaven is just another selfish human act when it comes down to it. The right thing should be done because you feel it is right. Righteousness should be its own reward.

 

[DarkSun]

Are you reading my entire post or are you simply skimming it? You seem to be stuck in the concept of heaven & hell - as I have posted before there are other options available like Karma & Rebirth.

I realise that there are other options, but those other options were not what Bruce was referring to, and neither were they what you were talking about when you replied to him. Yes, I read your post.

 

[RamaRaksha]

you wouldn't be a muslim in the first place if you didn't believe in hell and paradise.

Allah is not threatining anyone. he only tells/warns us of where our actions will lead us. hell has different kinds of punishments for different kinds of actions/deeds, same with paradise. god is only telling us which path leads to where. how can that be a threat when he is in no need of us?

I am sorry but these are the rantings of a brain-washed slave serving his master. Trying to reason with him is simply a waste of time.

This is partly the reason why religious dominated areas like the ones that the Taliban ruled are such abusive places with no room for democracy. This is why these guys keep getting ruled by dictators.