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Question for the Non-Muslims

DarkSun

:eltiT
i just said no one knows who will go to hell exactly appart from Allah, why are you bringing that 80% in the discussion? i don't know if anyone who isn't muslim will go to paradise, i'm only saying no one knows anything appart from Allah, i myself could end up in hell due to my choice of actions. and some people say that no one deserves any kind of punishment be it imprisonment or a fine, so who do we listen to?

Impisonment? - If you're too dangerous to be kept in society, yes.

Fine? - If it will help prevent a repeat offense, yes.

Eternal hell fire, torture, agony and pain for doing something I think is wrong? - That's something a sadistic psychopath would come up with. No.
 

RamaRaksha

*banned*
I realise that there are other options, but those other options were not what Bruce was referring to, and neither were they what you were talking about when you replied to him. Yes, I read your post. :eek:

Sometimes you might get so involved in the details that you miss the big picture. I guess my posting may make sense to you at a future date.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
What you're forgetting is that Islam isn't the only religion to claim this. And each religion has a different set of requirements for you to get into heaven and for hell. What sets Islam apart? How is it more likely to be closer to the truth than anything else?

you judge that for yourself with an open heart and an open mind. one without the other gets you knowhere.

The funny thing is that every Abrahamic religion, or denomination thereof, claims that we're choosing our fate in the after-life. Okay. Fair enough. Assuming we can choose what to believe, which one should be followed? And what if that choice turns out wrong? What a wasted existence. Personally, I think too many people are more focussed on the next life than the one they're currently in.

the true one should be followed, the religion will not choose you, you have to choose it. ask god to guide you, ask for his help and his signs with total sencerity and honesty. things don't happen by themself. the reason for focusing more in the afterlife is because everyone knows that one day we will die here and we will take nothing with us. it's only logical that you plan for the future.

And besides, doing the right thing just to get into heaven is just another selfish human act when it comes down to it. The right thing should be done because you feel it is right. Righteousness should be its own reward.

you do good things to get to heaven and you do good things because they are good, but doing those good things leads to heaven. muslims are obligated to love paradise and work for it. just like you love money and you work for it. why isn't it selfish to go to work everyday to get rewarded with money but it is selfishnes to do good deeds to get rewarded with paradise??
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Impisonment? - If you're too dangerous to be kept in society, yes.

Fine? - If it will help prevent a repeat offense, yes.

Eternal hell fire, torture, agony and pain for doing something I think is wrong? - That's something a sadistic psychopath would come up with. No.

but thats the reason why we are being tested on earth. some people (the disbelievers) reject paradise (as you may have seen in this thread) so they live all their life like that without ever wanting to change, so why should they be put into hell and be kept away from the other people?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
I am sorry but these are the rantings of a brain-washed slave serving his master. Trying to reason with him is simply a waste of time.

This is partly the reason why religious dominated areas like the ones that the Taliban ruled are such abusive places with no room for democracy. This is why these guys keep getting ruled by dictators.

yeah always turn to democracy, like democracy never lead to mass killing of innocent people all around the world. the taliban if you didn't know were supported by you democratic nations, they are the ones that create dictators and point the finger on others.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
you judge that for yourself with an open heart and an open mind. one without the other gets you knowhere.



the true one should be followed, the religion will not choose you, you have to choose it. ask god to guide you, ask for his help and his signs with total sencerity and honesty. things don't happen by themself. the reason for focusing more in the afterlife is because everyone knows that one day we will die here and we will take nothing with us. it's only logical that you plan for the future.

Frankly, all religions will repeat the same dogma. Except each one will say that they are right. Personally, I think I should believe what makes sense to me.



you do good things to get to heaven and you do good things because they are good, but doing those good things leads to heaven. muslims are obligated to love paradise and work for it. just like you love money and you work for it. why isn't it selfish to go to work everyday to get rewarded with money but it is selfishnes to do good deeds to get rewarded with paradise??

But doing good things because you want a reward out of it is selfish. And anyone can do good things because they fear the punishment - even a two year old. If at any point you do the right thing because you want paradise, or because you're afraid of hellfire, then you haven't really proven your character at all. You've just shown that you're really in it for yourself in the end, and that you can only do the right thing when the option of doing wrong is taken away. It's a bit redundant, really.

The right thing should be done for the sake of doing the right thing, and because people genuinely deserve to be treated as beings who can feel pain, happiness, hurt, joy and experience the full range of human emotion, no matter who they are. To hurt another person is to hurt yourself.

If Allah (swt) were all-knowing, perfect and merciful - then He would not brutally torture anyone for all eternity, because no one, and I mean no one, deserves that.
 
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DarkSun

:eltiT
but thats the reason why we are being tested on earth. some people (the disbelievers) reject paradise (as you may have seen in this thread) so they live all their life like that without ever wanting to change, so why should they be put into hell and be kept away from the other people?

But what you're neglecting to mention is that almost everyone on this thread is a good person at heart. If Allah exists, and I mean "if ", then how could he be merciful, and at the same time, reward their good natures with a never-ending world of pain? It doesn't make sense. Why would anyone deserve that, no matter what they've chosen to do with their lives?
 

Kenect2

Member
Why do some people believe in Allah?

Some believe in Allah because they think that not believing in Allah will result in eternal suffering in hell. To me, that seems like a strange reason to believe in something. Is it intellectually dishonest to make an evaluative decision based on a personal result?

For example, let's say that I wanted to evaluate whether or not I could successfully fly off a cliff, without any sort of vehicle, under my own natural power (i.e., flapping my arms). Flying around would be a very nice personal reward and so I would very much like to fly. However, crashing to the ground would be a very bad personal punishment, so I'd like to avoid that if possible. By the theist's standard, I want to fly and I don't want to crash, so I should believe that I can fly. Now I understand that Allah never promised that if I believe hard enough that I will actually be able to fly. What I'm talking about here is the standard of belief. Flying off a cliff is just a silly example. Obviously, it is a bad idea to believe that you can fly, just because you want the personal reward of being able to fly and you want to avoid crashing. But how is that example any different from wanting to believe in heaven? Because a centuries old book says it's true? Wouldn't it be better to use science to evaluate whether or not you can fly off a cliff?

Think for a moment about something that is very mysterious, but less mysterious than any gods, a black hole. We can't see any black holes, but we can see the effects of the black hole on its surroundings. Some people might say that you can't see Allah, but you can see his effect on his surroundings. The difference between these two, is that the effects around the black hole can be very well explained by natural laws, even though there is much we don't know. The effects of Allah on his surrounds does not seem to follow any consistent laws. Is there any objective, observable, measurable, calculate-able data at all suggesting that there is a god somewhere? I don't know of any. There are volumes of data concerning black holes. Where is the data with regards to Allah?

The reason why I believe in black holes, despite the fact that they can't be seen, is because they can be explained in great detail that is consistent with what I have observed and theorized about the world. The existence of Allah can be explained, but only in very poor detail. No doubt some believe that they have robust explanations, but from what I have heard, I cannot agree. By what natural laws will my person be sent to some place called "hell?" Where is hell anyway? What are its dimensions, its temperature, its mass? Since I do not have satisfying answers for these question, or any questions concerning Allah's alleged existence, I don't have any good reason to believe that Allah (whatever that is) exists, or that hell exists. These things have not been explained in terms of natural laws, and so I believe they are imaginary.

When I ask whether or not I should believe in black holes, I don't ask what effect my belief will have on me. I look at the data that is available, and I look at the theories, and I judge if it makes sense. That position seems a bit more intellectually honest than believing in something because I want it to be true.

It seems very silly to me to send me to hell for eternity simply because there I don't believe in hell.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Why do some people believe in Allah?

Some believe in Allah because they think that not believing in Allah will result in eternal suffering in hell. To me, that seems like a strange reason to believe in something. Is it intellectually dishonest to make an evaluative decision based on a personal result?

we believe in Allah because we love him. the only time a muslim might think about hell is when he commits a sin, so Allah says repent after you have sined so that i may forgive you. hell is just a reminder of what awaits us if we do not repents. all humans sin appart from the prophets of Allah, so when we sin we just have to repent for Allah says i am most forgiving, most mercifull.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
so what do you want me to do about it? i can't make you accept things, thats what faith and religion is about, you need to search it for yourself, no one can make you accept something.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
I want you to have the courage to be intellectually honest.

see thats your problem along side many other non msulims. i am telling the truth to you with all honesty and you are telling me that thats not what my religion is about. i honestly don't know what else to say to that.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
see thats your problem along side many other non msulims. i am telling the truth to you with all honesty and you are telling me that thats not what my religion is about. i honestly don't know what else to say to that.

That's not what he said at all. By "intelectually dishonest" he was referring to your use of flawed arguments. The links he provided explained why your arguments were flawed.

When he said "intellectually dishonest", he was not saying that you were lying about your beliefs.
 

Kenect2

Member
I understand that you think you are telling me "the truth." However, what you call "the truth" seems more like an appeal to consequences logical fallacy. You're using flawed logic.

eselam, I respect your commitment to your beliefs and I'm not accusing you of lying. What I'm saying is that your beliefs are unpersuasive because they aren't consistent with the way the world is.
 
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Kerr

Well-Known Member
but thats the reason why we are being tested on earth. some people (the disbelievers) reject paradise (as you may have seen in this thread) so they live all their life like that without ever wanting to change, so why should they be put into hell and be kept away from the other people?
How do you know the people who do not believe in heaven don´t want to change? I can speak from own experience, that is wrong.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
thats why this life is temporary and a test, it's never to late.
By the way, what do you mean by change?

The reason I ask is because if you convert from Islam to being completely not religious that qualify as change. Other just want to get rid of our own demons, metaphorically speaking. Change is simply change, people can desire to change to the better no matter religion or faith. And people can become better without the need of a deity.
 
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