Question for the Non-Muslims

[Kerr]

My issue with heaven and hell is that it is so black and white and static. I find the idea that you have to approach a deity to become a better person, and all those that do not believe in that deity will be condemned because they "chose to", to paint a not too pretty picture of the deity in question. Basically, he can change the rules so that more people can get better, but he doesn´t and instead he claims it is their fault when he was the one who created the system.

 

[Gharib]

By the way, what do you mean by change?

you were soposed to ask that the first time. did you read the link a few pages back that i used in response to nameless?

The reason I ask is because if you convert from Islam to being completely not religious that qualify as change. Other just want to get rid of our own demons, metaphorically speaking. Change is simply change, people can desire to change to the better no matter religion or faith. And people can become better without the need of a deity.

the change i'm talking about is believing after disblieving. people are attracted to this world and they do not want paradise which is etternal, so why should Allah give them paradise when they never wanted it? they chose hell knowing that it is etternal. so why should thoe kind of people be equal to the ones who struggeled all their life to attain paradise?

 

[Kerr]

the change i'm talking about is believing after disblieving. people are attracted to this world and they do not want paradise which is etternal, so why should Allah give them paradise when they never wanted it? they chose hell knowing that it is etternal. so why should thoe kind of people be equal to the ones who struggeled all their life to attain paradise?

Why so black and white? Why is it hell or paradise, and no level inbetween for those who do not want to reach paradise? You could just give them a good place to live and when they themselves desire strive to reach into paradise.

 

[Kerr]

you were soposed to ask that the first time. did you read the link a few pages back that i used in response to nameless?

Not really.

 

[SpaceDuck]

humans are responsible for going to hell, Allah has explained that this path leads to hell and that path leads to paradise.

Allah created the world, did he not? And with this, he created paradise and hell, correct? Since he created hell he is responsible for people going there since, assuming he is all-powerful, he could've chosen not to create hell. It doesn't matter that people have a choice to go there or not, if anyone end up suffering due to being condemned to hell, Allah is at fault.

what might they be

The creation of hell and the demand of worship mainly.

so why do you consider prison a suitable punishment?

What? When did I ever say that? Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

My personal opinion regarding crime and punishment is as follows:
The main goal of any punishment is to rehabilitate the criminal, giving him a chance to live a happy life without having to harm anyone. Any punishment where this is not possible are therefore out of the question, the two big ones are of course death and eternal suffering.

The second should be to prevent the criminal from causing any more harm until his rehabilitation is complete. This can be achieved with a prison sentence or (for example in the case of a DUI) revoked drivers license.

Anyhow, I'm getting way off-topic here, I hope this answers your questions as to why I do not like the idea of hell.

-SpaceDuck

 

[challupa]

good question, i think i should have explained this at the start.

i asked this question because when it comes to why Allah acceets only islam as a religion most non muslims say why would god care if we had another religion other than islam, so now i'm asking why would a non muslim care if Allah was to send them to hell?

What difference does it make what religion people think they are. Isn't it Islam's stance that all religions are Islam as there is only one God and that is Allah? So how can there be any "non-muslims" if you believe that?

 

[challupa]

Frankly, all religions will repeat the same dogma. Except each one will say that they are right. Personally, I think I should believe what makes sense to me.





But doing good things because you want a reward out of it is selfish. And anyone can do good things because they fear the punishment - even a two year old. If at any point you do the right thing because you want paradise, or because you're afraid of hellfire, then you haven't really proven your character at all. You've just shown that you're really in it for yourself in the end, and that you can only do the right thing when the option of doing wrong is taken away. It's a bit redundant, really.

The right thing should be done for the sake of doing the right thing, and because people genuinely deserve to be treated as beings who can feel pain, happiness, hurt, joy and experience the full range of human emotion, no matter who they are. To hurt another person is to hurt yourself.

If Allah (swt) were all-knowing, perfect and merciful - then He would not brutally torture anyone for all eternity, because no one, and I mean no one, deserves that.

Good post. I believe that all the things we do are a personal agenda in order to view ourselves in our idea of what we think is right or best in order to have the rewards we think these behaviors will reap. Everything we do is selfish. Even the good as you say. I could appear to be selfless in my life, serving others continually, doing so much good, however, it would still be in service to what I felt was right and what felt good to me. If I believed in rewards or punishment in an afterlife, this would just enhance my wanting to do these things for my own good.

 

[challupa]

you were soposed to ask that the first time. did you read the link a few pages back that i used in response to nameless?



the change i'm talking about is believing after disblieving. people are attracted to this world and they do not want paradise which is etternal, so why should Allah give them paradise when they never wanted it? they chose hell knowing that it is etternal. so why should thoe kind of people be equal to the ones who struggeled all their life to attain paradise?

In a universe where everything is interconnected and essentially "one thing" how can anyone be better than anyone else? Society and physical existence have come up with guidelines of what is good or bad in order because there are certain things that make sense in a physical world. We can physically die and hurt therefore society has decided that these things are not in the best interests of a cohesive world and therefore they are deemed wrong, bad and punishable etc. Things that are connected to harmony are deemed good. They are all subjective constructs in a physical world.

 

[Copernicus]

thats why this life is temporary and a test, it's never to late.

Now let's get this straight. Life is a temporary test, but it's never too late? Tests have deadlines. When the test is over, it is too late to change your answers.

 

[Copernicus]

we believe in Allah because we love him. the only time a muslim might think about hell is when he commits a sin, so Allah says repent after you have sined so that i may forgive you. hell is just a reminder of what awaits us if we do not repents. all humans sin appart from the prophets of Allah, so when we sin we just have to repent for Allah says i am most forgiving, most mercifull.

Unless, of course, you fail to repent. Then he shows no mercy.

 

[Perfect Circle]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Wishful thinking
Appeal to consequences.

so what do you want me to do about it? i can't make you accept things, thats what faith and religion is about, you need to search it for yourself, no one can make you accept something.

I want you to have the courage to be intellectually honest.

see thats your problem along side many other non msulims. i am telling the truth to you with all honesty and you are telling me that thats not what my religion is about. i honestly don't know what else to say to that.

I understand that you think you are telling me "the truth." However, what you call "the truth" seems more like an appeal to consequences logical fallacy. You're using flawed logic.

eselam, I respect your commitment to your beliefs and I'm not accusing you of lying. What I'm saying is that your beliefs are unpersuasive because they aren't consistent with the way the world is.

Eselam, do you have anything in response to this line of reasoning?

 

[Alceste]

Sorry for skipping the whole thing, but here's my answer: I don't care if your god (or anybody else's god) sends me to hell for not believing in him. If that happens, let's just say I'll be extremely surprised, and consider it a very bad stroke of luck that the entire purpose of reason turned out to be to damn those who use it to eternal torment.

 

[mr.guy]

I'd go for the tyrant. Any day of the week.

 

[Autodidact]

blaming others for your own decisions is always the easiest way out.

On the contrary, I appreciate your help. You saved me a lot of trouble. I mean, that was some silly, violent, poorly-written hyperbole. Now I know not to bother. Thanks.

 

[MSizer]

Any god, jesus, allah or whomever, can lick the bottom of my feet as far as I'm concerned (after I've just finished grooming donkeys). There's no place imaginable that can be worse than the conditions some people are born into in this life. So in short, I don't care. When god eliminates child suffering, I'll apologize to him/her and then s/he's welcome to do as s/he pleases with me.

 

[Riverwolf]

why isn't it selfish to go to work everyday to get rewarded with money but it is selfishnes to do good deeds to get rewarded with paradise??

Both are selfish.

The best work is done without any desire WHATSOEVER for reward or any sort of personal gain.

 

[challupa]

Both are selfish.

The best work is done without any desire WHATSOEVER for reward or any sort of personal gain.

There is always personal gain, even if it's just your image of who you think you are. That's my opinion anyway...

 

[Riverwolf]

There is always personal gain, even if it's just your image of who you think you are. That's my opinion anyway...

It's not about whether or not there IS personal gain; it's about non-attachment to it. Besides, selfless service is also meant to diminish the ego.

And, for the record, it can take several years to fully develop the mentality of complete selflessness.

 

[DarkSun]

why isn't it selfish to go to work everyday to get rewarded with money but it is selfishnes to do good deeds to get rewarded with paradise??

BTW, I don't have a job. I'm on student allowance.

 

[Kerr]

you do good things to get to heaven and you do good things because they are good, but doing those good things leads to heaven. muslims are obligated to love paradise and work for it. just like you love money and you work for it. why isn't it selfish to go to work everyday to get rewarded with money but it is selfishnes to do good deeds to get rewarded with paradise??

There is a difference between doing something good just for the reward and the reward being a consequence of being good. Or let me put it this way. If Allah decided helping a pregnant woman you don´t know to the hospital because she is about to give birth and for some reason cannot do it on her own won´t help you what so ever to enter paradise, then if you are doing good things just for the reward of them then you may just not care, because she won´t give you anything anyway. If you are good, though, because you believe it is the right thing... just saying that I don´t like when people do things because of the reward, it seems like to them the action itself was meaningless and all that matters is the carrot someone is holding in front of them. Not saying selfish is evil, if I did I would be a hypocrite since we are all selfish on one level or another, just saying if all your good actions are for reward it seems to diminish them. At last in my eyes.