Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I am not comparing and saying one is better. I am just giving the facts and the wrong notion of volume.

Can you say which you personally have a taste preference for? Like, we can't say if anything is truly better than something else, but we can give arguments for why we think one is better or prefer one over the other, like I've said a few times in this thread, my personal preference and taste gravitates me towards the writing, content, and style of the Qur'an or any fragment or quote that I've read so far (translated into English) attributed to Baha'u'llah. The differences in tastes and preferences and how they occur is a topic which really interests me and which I'd like to establish or receive some theories about why those differences in tastes and preferences and thus choices may occur.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

It is also right to point out that it is recorded that verses equivalent to the Quran remained unrecorded every day during the peak of the revelation for a long time. The secretaries were unable to keep up.



I also understand and acknowledge that. The Kitab-i-Iqan was one Revelation, on one day in answer to one question from the Bab's uncle.

I would never offer one Revelation is better than another, as it is God's Will as to what is offered in a Message to humanity.

I would offer the entire collection of the works of Baha'u'llah could be seen as the part of one Book, if we compile it as the Quran was compiled.

Regards Tony

There was this woman in an apartment next to my friend's roach infested apartment, and day and night, almost without stopping, she would dictate out loud about all sorts of things and quite frequently would interrupt her sentences or conclude with "Isn't it!" said sort of weirdly and accusatively, and she would not stop, and it also sounded like she had as a hostage in that apartment some person who was moaning horribly, being forced to listen to this endless speech about all sorts of things, conspiracies from China, events in the future, events in the past, things going on outside or with children and predators and in the building and around the world. The fact that she never seemed to take any breather or break from this tedious and really insane seeming helpless dictation and lecturing and speaking, and she didn't stop for all the hours I was there and I even stayed over nights and she never stopped and was speaking very rapidly as well. Then she went into praying non-stop like that also which she announced everything she was about to do before she started doing it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Could you please link me once more to this thread where you covered that topic, I'd like to read it if I find the time! Thank you very much!

Is it possible to investigate Bahaullah's claim?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Is it possible to investigate Bahaullah's claim?

Thank you very much!

Also a note to everyone, I might write a lot, but one doesn't have to read it all at once or really fast and frantically, but it might be best at a relaxed and easy going pace, even with breaks if needed, in order to absorb all that is being said and so it doesn't seem like its all just really quick and fast and like a machine gun, the way one ends up reading my writing may change the way that the style and tone and even content is interpreted and reacted to. Since its all written in one post, there may be a tendency to just quickly run through it and it might give the impression of it being really frantic or something, but it can also be read really slowly with one's own careful spacing and pacing to make it a more comfortable read. Just a suggestion to everyone!

Thank you again for giving me that great thread, I'm excited to read it!

 

[Ancient Soul]

Which questions?

The opening questions starting off this forum thread are too specific for me to comment on. As this Baha'i mythology is new to me.

But from what I've been shown by these Baha'i followers here, is that it's a train wreck to say the least.

I'm currently Non-Bahai, and I wrote a version of my answers to the questions a few posts down or on one of these pages, I answered every single question that I wrote, and I'm pretty much not familiar with Bahai stuff at all, so instead, one can either change the questions slightly to make them answerable or otherwise use it as an opportunity to share your own beliefs and understandings and why you think you might be hesitant to believe anything different or newer or whatever. So that is sort of what I did, I kind of wrote about some of my own ideas and beliefs a little in my answers I think.

So, for me, I'm trying to mainly figure out why the Bahai religion is useful or necessary when it seems like its very similar to Islamic stuff, and saying basically the things that are in the Qur'an, closely enough that I'm not seeing why it needs to be a different religion or considered a different religion. Like, Judaism can't be Christianity because the Jewish people deny this whole Jesus is the Messiah business and especially that Jesus is God, so Christianity really is and has to be its own religion, and Islam isn't Judaism, since Islam makes its own traditions and differs in many places from Judaism as it developed and denies aspects of the Jewish scriptures and traditions maybe, so that is its own thing too but I think it contains the same message of the "One Religion" that the Bahai seem to be all about too, and I think they got that idea maybe from the writings of the Qur'an which basically state it outright.

So Judaism makes sense to me as its own religion that isn't Christianity which has to be its own religion too, and Islam has to be different from both (though might be pretty similar to Judaism even though the Qur'an claims Christians are closer to Muslims, maybe because of their accepting Jesus as the Messiah which Jews don't).

The big religions seem to be Hinduism (and its varying sects), Buddhism(s), Judaism (the tiniest of the big religions), Christianity (the biggest still I think?), and Islam (also very huge) when all the sects are combined for each. Theism is the top basic idea in the world today among people, and even most Buddhists I've encountered are basically pretty darn theistic for the most part when it comes to actually how they live and practice, and Atheistic people are a minority (are they more than the population of Jewish people? I think so, probably).

Zoroastrianism and other stuff is still around too, but I'm pretty sure their numbers are even less than that of the actively practicing Jewish people even.

Then there are two 1800s religions I think that are pretty big, The LDS Church (Mormonism) and the Bahai, and we can through in also the much older Sikh religion (which might actually have a huger population than the LDS and Bahai overall) and the Jehovah's Witnesses (not sure on their numbers in comparison to the LDS or the Bahai).

The Jehovah's Witnesses seemed at first to me to be closer to ordinary Christians than the LDS, but actually their theology might be a little different from the mainstream as well, so requiring them to be their own unique sect, and the Sikh also seem to have some unique developments in their religion which makes them different from Hindus and Muslims, which they sort of seemed like a kind of combination of maybe in some ways.

So, just like an Atheist prefers none of these religions, my personal preference is to modify everything that I can into an Islamic framework of monotheism. I find that, like if we were playing a game or something, the Qur'anic framework and theology as I make it out to be is the easiest, clearest, and most useful for basically tacking on almost any other system and those system's terminologies and making them monotheistic, so I find it pretty easy to take Hindu or Vedic materials or Mahayana or Esoteric Buddhist materials and tacking them onto the Islamic framework, or Ancient stuff called "pagan" like the religions of Greece, Rome, Ancient Egypt, the Celts, the Vikings, Aztecs, Native Americans, Chinese, whatever, just by making it that its all monotheistic, every term is an aspect or power or epithet of one God, and they can be switched out freely, so if you are calling on God for rain, you call on Rain God or whatever, but its the same God you're talking to, just that different term related to rain stuff more, which Islam already sort of gave people the idea for in some ways with all its different names and epithets for Allah and their practice of dhikr (praising and invoking God by various names which people also believed would call upon different attributes or bring about different things).

So, because of that, I basically take on just about most every religion, even fictional ones like those from fictional worlds or games (like Warhammer) or stories (like Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos) without much issue.

The only religions which are beyond my encompassing and covering are basically the ones with very specific official theologies and leadership structures which reject this particular brand of Universal Monotheism that takes every term and name possible, so I can't participate with or be a member of the LDS or Mormonism, I can't really be a mainstream Christian (I can only be a Unitarian type these days, I think that is an offshoot of Calvinism which my beliefs are close to), Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, all of them are fine and can be used though. So the ones that are too far away are Mormonism and The Joy of Satan type beliefs due to their very literal and bodily sort of almost biological polytheism.

I can also say with confidence, and at least for me, that this all seems to "work", and continue to work, I've used names like Hermes and Odin and Tlaloc or referred to Tezcatlipoca or Shangdi or Azathoth or whatever at all, Apollo, Nergal, any of that effectively and with as much seeming success as using the words Allah or YHWH or whatever else, so in my opinion it doesn't seem to matter one bit what word is used, even Lucifer or The Devil, so long as one is meaning to refer to the same One Ultimate Power and has a clear idea about what they are talking about. Even if one does not have a clear idea, or is referring to different things, if those things don't really exist, yet a prayer seems answered or some miraculous thing happens, then its still the same One that is believed by me to be answering it or playing into the request or role, even if it ends up making the people believe whatever other things, like that their particular bodily deity they imagine actually exists individually or something or is in conflict with other things, all beliefs which I find to be cumbersome and not really healthy or useful overall and more anxiety inducing and problematic than the belief in One that encompasses All.

The Bahai religion, due to its closeness to Islam, is mainly compatible also with these beliefs most likely, but the problem might occur in any heavy duty attention given to the writings of Baha'u'llah or the things claimed about him or by him, which I probably don't really fully believe in or accept (or haven't found a way to contort them enough to this system, since I don't believe in any literal idea that the various Prophets or Messengers were all encompassed by him or that he was them (not sure if they claim this exactly), or God or God's Holy Spirit or whatever, but I think they were all ordinary individuals. I can accept that Baha'u'llah was possibly inspired by God, since I don't think that is beyond people and that anyone can be inspired by God at any time with anything at all, and I am confident that God created the Bahai religion, but that is because I believe God creates everything, even Satanism and criminal organizations and whatever, good or evil, everything whatsoever, and leads on and controls everyone involved, for better or for worse.

So, I'm quite satisfied and happy with my "All Religion" freedom, worshipping Amun, Loki, whatever the heck I want to, in a framework or system I find both logical as well as efficient and even very fun, with basically no compromises made about much of anything, so I get to worship whatever without forcing myself into beliefs I consider awkward or unbelievable or difficult.

I don't really know what the Bahai could offer that is better than my beliefs or my religion, which even easily enough encompasses all their materials without sacrificing any other materials and doesn't cut oneself off from most anything.

Could someone, if someone thinks that Bahai or anything else is the way, somehow convince me of how I might be wrong and why their way should be adopted instead?

Yikes!

I just asked a simple question, no need for replying with a whole book.

But I'll pass.

I have been given my own spiritual path that is designed for me by God, it's not for anyone else.

But as for this Baha'i mythology, it's clearly just a convoluted miss-match of a religion like all the other religions are. It even adds to it's confusion by claiming that all other religions are from "god" also. That's just an insane proclamation to make. Why would a "god" tell people all kinds of different lies about himself?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The fact that she never seemed to take any breather or break from this tedious and really insane seeming helpless dictation and lecturing and speaking, and she didn't stop for all the hours I was there and I even stayed over nights and she never stopped and was speaking very rapidly as well.

I fail how to see this has any relevance to anything offered.

Regards Tony

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Yikes!

I just asked a simple question, no need for replying with a whole book.

But I'll pass.

I have been given my own spiritual path that is designed for me by God, it's not for anyone else.

But as for this Baha'i mythology, it's clearly just a convoluted miss-match of a religion like all the other religions are. It even adds to it's confusion by claiming that all other religions are from "god" also. That's just an insane proclamation to make. Why would a "god" tell people all kinds of different lies about himself?

I think its possible that a playful or malicious sort of power may do something like tell all sorts of different things to different people.

Can you possibly tell me about your personal religion and path? You have a picture from Ancient Egypt for example, are you into the Egyptian stuff? I'd love to know more.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Nah. You said "mostly", so please do go and find some stats to substantiate it. See, you are stating your personal detestment of religion as a whole, nothing more.

Some people become atheists due to their reasoning, but not all conversions or most conversions happen because of your reasoning.

Also mate. Just look at your reasoning here. You respond to my comment, and then say "if you dislike it dont read it".

If I dont read it how would I know if I dislike or like it?

I already covered this by pointing out your comment on how much you dislike my posts.

I hate that feeling that I'm talking to a rock.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I fail how to see this has any relevance to anything offered.

Regards Tony

Well, I mention it because it seems that people are capable of quite amazing feats when it comes to producing lots of writing or speaking in a short period of time (even I might be considered an example in this respect), but in these modern times, these people are often not considered very special or magnified for this ability. That is not to say that you were suggesting that Baha'u'llah's production of the book in a single night was a miracle, you probably weren't saying that, and I do consider it quite impressive if someone produced a book in a single night (as others may have claimed to have done this also), but what I was getting at is, do people consider this a kind of miraculous proof? If not, that is ok, I might have misunderstood and thought that it is impressive myself and suspected (wrongly) that it is considered a miraculous proof of the validity of Baha'u'llah's claims or something.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I already covered this by pointing out your comment on how much you dislike my posts.

I hate that feeling that I'm talking to a rock.

If a rock talks back to you the way that firedragon does, consider yourself blessed!

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Yikes!

I just asked a simple question, no need for replying with a whole book.

But I'll pass.

I have been given my own spiritual path that is designed for me by God, it's not for anyone else.

But as for this Baha'i mythology, it's clearly just a convoluted miss-match of a religion like all the other religions are. It even adds to it's confusion by claiming that all other religions are from "god" also. That's just an insane proclamation to make. Why would a "god" tell people all kinds of different lies about himself?

What ever I write is for more than just one person overall usually, but I hope you appreciate how much time and effort went into writing extensively in reply, it should be considered a compliment no doubt that someone put in that sort of effort based on something you wrote. Yet, most people are pretty rude and take for granted the amount that people write for them or as replies.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, I mention it because it seems that people are capable of quite amazing feats when it comes to producing lots of writing or speaking in a short period of time (even I might be considered an example in this respect), but in these modern times, these people are often not considered very special or magnified for this ability. That is not to say that you were suggesting that Baha'u'llah's production of the book in a single night was a miracle, you probably weren't saying that, and I do consider it quite impressive if someone produced a book in a single night (as others may have claimed to have done this also), but what I was getting at is, do people consider this a kind of miraculous proof? If not, that is ok, I might have misunderstood and thought that it is impressive myself and suspected (wrongly) that it is considered a miraculous proof of the validity of Baha'u'llah's claims or something.

Quran 2:23 makes this decision clear and easy.

"And if ye are in doubt As to what We have revealed From time to time to Our servant, Then produce a Sura Like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true."

So if the babble of the next door neighbour was on par with the Quran, then you have a cause to consider it a miracle, after all the Quran is viewed in that light.

Likewise, we have the same choice with the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh.

I have read your posts and contained within all the niceties, are some quite disturbing statements.

So I have become very cautious about where you are going with all that you offer.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Thanks for that information. I just did a quick search on the web and got the number of pages in the Qur'an and compared that to the Kitab-i-Iqan, but it did not seem right that the Qur'an contained only twice as much in volume.

Oh. No problem at all. It was just a note.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

What did the Bab say in the Bayan that contradicts what Shoghi Effendi wrote? Can you quote it?

Read the Will and Testament of The Bab (even though you Baha'i's avoid reading it at all costs, it incontestably appoints Subh i-Azal). Read the Persian Bayan.

From the Persian Bayan, it states - Vahid 2 Gate 16:

"All, all, run to seek refuge in the shadow of this Point in which you have already entered. If you
hear it said that a person has manifested Himself with verses and that the wise ones of this epoch
have recognized Him, and I do not speak of the celebrated wise ones, but those who are meticulous and subtle, not like those of this time who have remained in obscurity; I speak, I say, of the meticulous, of those who have the perspicacious eye, even if they are clothed in the vestments of poverty and humility.
They are those who, in truth, have penetrated first into Paradise and and have clothed themselves
therein with vestments of silk.
As for the others they have remained in the previous command. Do not hesitate then! Enter into
His shadow, for it is He, the First and the Last, it is He, the Apparent and the Hidden. And if you
have not heard (that a manifestation of this kind has been manifested), then wail and pray, so that
the blessing of God will not separate from you for 2001 years. If you hear it said from now to 2001
years that has been manifested Him Who is My friend and yours, Him Who is My Lord and yours,
then do not hesitate, be it even for the space of a breath; enter all in the command of God and do
not say “why?” nor “how?” This is the highest of the commands that I give you. Because I permit
you, I deliver you from the fire of remoteness from God.
O people of the Bayan, may all of you be among those who thank!
That if someone (among you) hesitates for the space of a breath after 2001 years, without any
doubt, he is not in the religion of the Bayan and has entered into the fire, unless during this space of time, the manifestation of God will not have been manifested: then all have the duty to weep and to wail. It is not that you should be like the Jews who await the coming of Jesus, nor like the Christians who await that of Muhammad, nor like the Muslims who await the Qa’im. My heart will not be satisfied if a single individual remains in the Bayan when it will be announced that the Point of the Bayan has returned to the life of this world.
I vow by Him Whom God shall make manifest, and there was not, and there is not in the
knowledge of God a greater pledge than that, if He is manifested and that a single individual
[remains] in the Bayan, all the chastisement of the Bayan is doubled for him. For today, the
Qur’anic chastisements are doubled for those who have not entered into the Bayan; it is the same
for the chastisements of the Evangel, for those who have not entered into the Qur’an. They have
also, those ones, to submit to double the chastisements of the Qur’an.
If one encounters such a person ever, ever and ever, he has not entered into the Bayan, nor in
the shadow of the Tree of the Master of the Seven Letters."


The Bab is pretty damn explicit here that He Whom God Shall Make Manifest is not coming in 25 years, let alone even 1,000 years, but rather two whole millennia. He writes about this in other writings too.

Baha'u'llah (and the other 20 or so people who made such claims who didn't get popular) is simply not that awaited figure.
He Whom God Shall Make Manifest is so far in the future that he's not even worth bothering about from the Babi/Bayani view. Subh i-Azal was The Bab's immediate successor.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

What did the Bab say in the Bayan that contradicts what Shoghi Effendi wrote? Can you quote it?

@The Artis Magistra (You may find this interesting too, RE: Baha'u'llah is not who he claimed to be, according to The Bab)

Also from Persian Bayan, Vahid 2 Gate 16:

"Otherwise, if you hear it said that a manifestation has produced itself with verses (similar to those) of yore, and this at the number of God (that is to say 1511) enter therein all of you. If He is not manifested in this epoch, it will take place after 2001. If then you await it be said that the Point has been manifested, and if all of you are not convinced, have pity upon yourselves!"


From Persian Bayan, Vahid 2 Gate 17:

"If He manifests Himself in the number 1511, and that all enter (into His religion), not a single one will remain in the fire; if one must wait until 2001, and if then all enter, not a single one will remain in the fire; all being changed into light. One must ask for this blessing from Him Whom God shall make manifest, for the highest blessing, and the most sublime gift is that stragglers will not remain as in the other religions. For example, 122 the letters of the Evangel: two other Books descended from God, and they are still awaiting Him Who must come and the name of Whom is Ahmad.
If He does not manifest Himself at these two names (1511 and 2001), certainly He will manifest
Himself; one cannot escape from Him. And truly I see His manifestation as I see this sun in the
midst of the heavens, and the setting of all (all the religions) like the stars of the night when the day comes. And I speak (of this disappearance) from the point of view of faith and of truth, and not from the material and contingent point of view."

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

What did the Bab say in the Bayan that contradicts what Shoghi Effendi wrote? Can you quote it?

@The Artis Magistra

Also another:

Persian Bayan, Vahid 3 Gate 15:

"It is the same if all the believers in the Bayan believe in Him Whom God shall make manifest; not a single one among them will remain in the fire, and the order of non-believer will not be thrust upon any one among them. Await the manifestation so that that space of a breath will not pass between the moment of the manifestation and that in which all those who believe in the Bayan will give their faith, for it is not worthy that He be awaited during Mustaghas (that is to say 2001 years). If they take step of the robe of circumspection, this circumspection was and is in the fire. Even if our hope in God, very good and very benevolent may be this that at the moment of His
manifestation, by His elevated orders in His writings He awakens all His slaves from their sleep and does not permit that, following the formal order of His Bayan which is “from Qias to Mustaghas” they will remain in the fire; for, finally, nobody other than God knows the date of the
manifestation. When it takes place, all must affirm the Point of Truth and thank God, even though
we hope in God that one will not have to wait until Mustaghas and that before this date the word of God will arise."

 

[Ancient Soul]

I think its possible that a playful or malicious sort of power may do something like tell all sorts of different things to different people.

Can you possibly tell me about your personal religion and path? You have a picture from Ancient Egypt for example, are you into the Egyptian stuff? I'd love to know more.

No, I'm not a believer of any religion, Egyptian nor any other.

I just use that Avatar because my forum name is Ancient Soul, and the Avatar is the BA, the symbol of the soul that departs form the person upon death and hovers over the body.

I have no religion, and my spiritual path is a huge topic, w-a-y to huge to even know where to start.

 

[firedragon]

I'm pretty sure it was Donner I was thinking of who might have said there isn't too much we can be certain of regarding Muhammed, or was that someone else who was saying that in Academia?

As far as I know Donner says that books like al Akbar al thiwaal records some exploits of Alexander but he says that Dhul Qarnnayn is "attributed" to Alexander in the Quran. This parallelism theories dont really sit well with this level of scholarship. It is done by people like Andy Bannister but their scholarship on the matter is so poor its pseudo scholarship.

You can read about how the Syriac Alexander Romance portion is word for word in the Qur'an in a book about the Historical Sources and Literary Sources for the content of the Qur'an which is by Gabriel Said Reynolds (can be found on Library Genesis, I think that is the one that shows that clearly).

Tell me Artis. When does Said Reynolds date the Syriac Alexander Romance to?

You see, I stated earlier that Dhul Qarnain means "two seasons". Qarana in arabic mens season, era, time period or generation. The idea of "two horns" is a letter interpolation based on a supposed head gear but if you read through the Quran you would see that it always meant a generation. Thus there is a question mark.

There are some parallels but parallels occur everywhere. Doesn't mean Muhammed plagiarised from the Alexander Romance. Muhammed has to be a multi lingual google to get all of these texts including the OT, the NT, Epic of Gilgamesh, Ancient Greek texts, and many others. Said's parallelism borders on the word Dhul Qarnain, Alexanders exploits of the so called "Zalimoon" and traveling up and down, but Dhul Qarnain being a two horned person is a much later interpretation and not from the Quranic usage of the phrase. Also the Quran doesnt say wall or gate, it says a barrier or a saddha. People assumed, post alexandrian inference upon the Qur'an that it is a wall. But read the Quran.

Anyway this is all way off the topic.

 

[Ancient Soul]

What ever I write is for more than just one person overall usually, but I hope you appreciate how much time and effort went into writing extensively in reply, it should be considered a compliment no doubt that someone put in that sort of effort based on something you wrote. Yet, most people are pretty rude and take for granted the amount that people write for them or as replies.

Ok, good point.

But I usually only have only a few to a couple of hours a night in replying to posts, and that time sure disappears FAST! I usually don't get many replies in. So please forgive my rudeness. I just would rather use the time discussing issues, not reading overly long posts.

 

[firedragon]

Can you say which you personally have a taste preference for? Like, we can't say if anything is truly better than something else, but we can give arguments for why we think one is better or prefer one over the other, like I've said a few times in this thread, my personal preference and taste gravitates me towards the writing, content, and style of the Qur'an or any fragment or quote that I've read so far (translated into English) attributed to Baha'u'llah. The differences in tastes and preferences and how they occur is a topic which really interests me and which I'd like to establish or receive some theories about why those differences in tastes and preferences and thus choices may occur.

Open another thread and we can discuss that. Because I have read both. I will urge you to do the same.