qur'an burning in Florida

[tmThEMaN]

Harming anyone at all over this would be unacceptable and barbaric. Retaliation is fine as long as it doesn't infringe anyone's rights; and that includes rights to life. If something has to be done why not just demonstrate that this guy is a nutcase (though he's already proving that on his own), or cooperate with the Christians who are agreeing that he's a nutcase?

That's what moderate Muslim and clerks are doing now. They are trying to calm the masses by demonstrating that this is an act of hate by a group, not a nation. I refuse to stereotype anyone as much as i don't want others to stereotype Muslims.
But the problem is that many people are supporting this act, and silence is being considered as agreeing to his actions.
I read that many US officials are denouncing this and hoping that they don't actually do it. But we still think that this is not freedom of speech. Freedom should not be unlimited. Just like i should not be free to be a racist towards other ethnicities.

Most of America didn't support the war in Iraq or many of the wars overseas in the interest of "democracy." (Or whatever our government says to justify it). We can't help if our dumb government does it anyway -- many of us don't support it.

I totally understand that and i have high regards for the intellectuals who can read between the lines. We have a concept in Islam that translates into this "No one shall bear the burden of another".

I would fight for this idiot's right to do something well within his rights in any way I could. He has a right to do what he's doing, but that doesn't make it a just or intelligent thing that he's doing. But we can't say "no, you can't do that" because the minute we infringe anyone's rights then all the rest of our rights are also in danger of being infringed because it sets a precedent of taking away rights.

You see, for you it is freedom that is worth fighting for, for us it is Islam. This is what makes Muslims very sensitive about their religion just like americans are sensitive about the freedom of speech.

When a child is in time out and screaming at the top of his lungs in a desperate attempt for attention is it best to beat them or to just ignore them and prove once and for all that such tactics won't get them anywhere??

Let's put it this way and say that this child is not mine and he is misbehaving by throwing rocks at me. Then i would ask his parents to deal with him because he is their responsibility. They are the ones who should teach him not to throw rocks at people because that would hurt them and make them unhappy.

 

[tmThEMaN]

Based on the Muslim investiment of emotional value in the property of someone else.
.

Hmm.. do you mean to say that these books are his property and we are investing our emotions is books that are not ours?!

If so, then he is not burning them as a material or property, he is burning them as a symbol which he does not own. Right?

 

[Badran]

We should do nothing about this. Anything done to give attention or show outrage to this incident would be a big mistake.

Not to mention, that this is exactly the kind of thing that we should forgive as its basically just an insult.

 

[waitasec]

Hmm.. do you mean to say that these books are his property and we are investing our emotions is books that are not ours?!

If so, then he is not burning them as a material or property, he is burning them as a symbol which he does not own. Right?

that is right he doesn't own the symbol, you do....
it is a piece of property he is burning to him...
so it shouldn't matter what he does with it. it is with in freedom he has the right to be ignorant, why? i don't know, but nonetheless he does

freedom of speech is acknowledging we are all equal
no one has the right to infringe on someone else's rights
we have laws to protect our freedoms
we believe NO religion should be over the other because everyone has the right to believe what they want to, just don't infringe your beliefs on my rights and we'll get along just fine...i am not only saying this to muslims but to christians as well or any religion for that matter.

 

[tmThEMaN]

that is right he doesn't own the symbol, you do....
it is a piece of property he is burning to him...
so it shouldn't matter what he does with it. it is with in freedom he has the right to be ignorant, why? i don't know, but nonetheless he does

freedom of speech is acknowledging we are all equal
no one has the right to infringe on someone else's rights
we have laws to protect our freedoms
we believe NO religion should be over the other because everyone has the right to believe what they want to, just don't infringe your beliefs on my rights and we'll get along just fine...i am not only saying this to muslims but to christians as well or any religion for that matter.

Ok, so freedom stops at physical harm, but emotional harm is not a problem. That's the collective understanding from what i read here.

The freedom to harm to protect freedom is ok too. I think i get it now.

 

[Skwim]

Hmm.. do you mean to say that these books are his property and we are investing our emotions [in] books that are not ours?!

Appears to be the case.

If so, then he is not burning them as a material or property, he is burning them as a symbol which he does not own. Right?

I have no idea on how Jones regards the Koran, symbolically or otherwise. My guess is that he's doing it purely for the publicity. But, if in fact, he regards the Koran as a symbol of those who committed terrorists acts upon the United States, then I assume that would be the context of his actions.

As far as "owning" a symbol, I don't know how that works.
If I decide that the Sycamore Lace bug symbolizes Islam does that somehow limit what I can do to it? How about if we both decide it symbolizes Islam, does that somehow preclude what I can do with it? And, if I decide that the Sycamore Lace bug symbolizes Islam does that give me some kind propitiatory rights to the notion? Am I "within my rights" to insist you can't do X to any Sycamore Lace bug if you also agree to its symbolism?

In the USA we don't view such symbolism as having protective rights. For instance, we can legally desecrate the US flag all we want. Of course Muslim law may be different, but different as it may be if such law is seen as applicable to acts committed on foreign soil, and retaliation is effected then repercussions may well follow. IMO Muslims would be very foolish to act on whatever Jones does.

 

[Penumbra]

a pastor in florida says he is going to burning copies of the qur'an this saturday because he blames the muslims for 9/11...
this makes as much sense as blaming the republican party or the catholic church for the oklahoma city bombing timothy mcVeigh was responsible for...
any thoughts?

I'm strongly against this ignorant, unhelpful, and potentially harmful event, but I also strongly believe he has the right to do it. Anybody who disagrees that he should do it should tell him, like Petraeus did, but in the end I think it's firmly within his legal right to burn literature.

I really don't know. Of course i don't support hurting the innocents who had nothing to do with the burning, like in Afghanistan for example. They have nothing to do with this, but the anger will be too hot for sensibility and thinking.

So do you support committing violence against the pastor that plans to go through with the burning?

 

[Meow Mix]

Ok, so freedom stops at physical harm, but emotional harm is not a problem. That's the collective understanding from what i read here.

The freedom to harm to protect freedom is ok too. I think i get it now.

The thing is though that you can choose not to be emotionally harmed.

There's a saying in America, "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me."

Sure, you can be harmed emotionally by someone's words -- but only if YOU allow it to harm yourself.

Likewise, this nutcase can burn books and throw insults all he wants but it's up to Muslims to decide whether he is harming them or not. If you decide to give him that power over you then you can become angry. If you decide not to give him power and ignore him, then he will crawl back under the rock that he came from -- and let him stay there and rot.

That guy is an idiot, but if people get outraged and make a spectacle over him; they're just giving him and his supporters power.

 

[.lava]

We should do nothing about this.

absolutely. let them play with fire alone

.

 

[Drook]

Im muslim but why they do that for fun we respect people in gulf but why there is no piece =.= *sigh*

 

[Meow Mix]

Im muslim but why they do that for fun we respect people in gulf but why there is no piece =.= *sigh*

It's only one guy's church doing it and Americans are mostly of the opinion that he's an intolerant idiot.

However, in America we value people's right to free speech, so he can legally do it.

We may think he's an idiot but we can't take away his rights to express himself.

 

[Drook]

So in other way there is nice americans. Btw i wanna ask

ok i saw a vid racist at tge zero park whatever it is
the saw a muslim and attack him okay i have a point
we have 100000 americans we love them we treat them good why they do that i mean okay i actuly start to hate the name muslim im pround but seeing people hate religion suck

Perfect point : everyone born with religion yuup imagine a baby learn the islamic religion from his parents he is american he will grow up and say like im an american and im muslim bla bla bla same with jew or christian . So whythey take the religions like that
btw i know my eng sucks =.="

 

[Meow Mix]

So in other way there is nice americans. Btw i wanna ask

ok i saw a vid racist at tge zero park whatever it is
the saw a muslim and attack him okay i have a point
we have 100000 americans we love them we treat them good why they do that i mean okay i actuly start to hate the name muslim im pround but seeing people hate religion suck

Perfect point : everyone born with religion yuup imagine a baby learn the islamic religion from his parents he is american he will grow up and say like im an american and im muslim bla bla bla same with jew or christian . So whythey take the religions like that
btw i know my eng sucks =.="

That has nothing to do with being an American, there are people like that in every country.

The fact is that some people are jerks and idiots.

MOST Americans think these people you're talking about are just as stupid as you think they are.

Edit: In fact, I got my bachelors degree at the University of Kansas and there were a huge number of Muslim students. I lived next door to two Saudi brothers for a year, Ibraham and Mohammed. Muslims simply don't have any real problem with American hating them over here... like I said, there are just a small number of people who are very LOUD about their hate; and Americans allow them to do it because we value freedom of speech. We may not like what they have to say or that it's hateful but we believe that anyone has the right to speak their mind, even if they're an idiot.

 

[Drook]

Ok okay i get it thnx very much

 

[ImmortalFlame]

"... as good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God’s image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye. Many a man lives a burden to the earth; but a good book is the precious life-blood of a master spirit, imbalmed and treasured up on purpose to a life beyond life. It is true, no age can restore a life, whereof perhaps there is no great loss; and revolutions of ages do not oft recover the loss of a rejected truth, for the want of which whole nations fare the worse. We should be wary therefore what persecution we raise against the living labors of public men, how we spill that seasoned life of man preserved and stored up in books; since we see a kind of homicide may be thus committed, sometimes a martyrdom, and if it extend to the whole impression, a kind of massacre, whereof the execution ends not in the slaying of an elemental life, but strikes at that ethereal and fifth essence, 17 the breath of reason itself, slays an immortality rather than a life."
-John Milton, Areopagitica: A Speech for the Liberty of Unlicensed Printing.

Burning books - any books - is the first sign of a society or group descending utterly into moral reprehensibility. The notion that the words born from ideas, or even the expression of these ideas could or should ever be put to the torch, is something that every freedom-loving human should rightfully find disgusting. Fortunately, this group of attention-seeking pissants will do no more than provide a meagre bonfire to toast their hateful intolerances over. Fortunately, I doubt they will burn nearly enough to provide any benefit whatsoever to their cause, and while I think all right-minded people should be disgusted by what they're trying to do the best course of action in this case is merely to not give them the attention they so desperately crave. Until, that is, they start to come for books that belong to others.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Here is a different viewpoint about as radical as the Pastor:

...This planned action is provocative, endangers the nation's national security and safety, demonstrates total lack of responsibility, and is a mockery of freedom of religion and freedom of speech! No one has the right to "shout fire in a crowded theater" and call it freedom of speech, and no one has the right to invoke the concept of God and provoke bloodshed and violence when it endangers the whole nation!...

The Gainesville Koran Burning: Arrest Preacher Terry Jones Under “Clear And Present Danger!” | The Progressive Professor.

There are a lot of reasonable actions ongoing also to curb the burning:

Reverend Larry Reimer of The United Church of Gainesville said it was important to know that Jones and his followers represent virtually no one.
"I believe they had 30 people at their service last week," he said.
Reimer said he has gathered 25 clergy from Gainesville, including Jews, Christians and Muslims, who will be reading Jewish, Muslim and Christian texts this Sunday in a show of interfaith solidarity.
"The issue is not between religions but between people who are fundamental fanatics on either side," he said. "We are finding that the Jewish, Christian and Muslims are more than ready to reach out to one another."
Reimer says 2,000 people have signed a petition asking Jones not to burn the Korans that will be delivered to Jones on Friday at 11:00am

9/11 Koran-burning: armed congregation vow ceremony will go ahead - Telegraph.

 

[Meow Mix]

You know, I own a leather bound copy of the King James Version Bible from a friend I used to work with and debate on friendly terms... he gave it to me before we both left (it was just a steakhouse job when I was in my late teens). I've kept it in close to pristine condition (it's a little bent from a moving mishap on the edges but otherwise preserved perfectly).

I confess I haven't read it all the way through, though I have read the Bible in other versions from when I was younger. But I kept it because it was a gift from an extraordinarily thoughtful person and felt it was worth preserving.

Maybe I should make the endeavor also to pick up a copy of the Quran, and also copies of other sacred texts from around the world.

I may be a lesbian but I do hope to have a child some day, and when I do I want them to be able to read these texts if they want. I may be an atheist but I would never raise a child telling them what to think. I would only teach my child how to think and then support them in their decisions after that, even if I disagree with their conclusions.

 

[Wotan]

Ok, so freedom stops at physical harm, but emotional harm is not a problem. That's the collective understanding from what i read here.

The freedom to harm to protect freedom is OK too. I think i get it now.

My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins.
The nut job wants to a J*A* let him. He is not hurting anybody. Are you that impressed with him that you CARE what he does?

 

[Smoke]

I can seriously tell you that to us this is like the killing of your Family in public infront of your eyes. It is that sensitive to us.

I can seriously tell you that I think that's absolutely absurd. A person who considers a blasphemous act the equivalent of murdering his family before his eyes is nuts.

 

[.lava]

I really don't know. Of course i don't support hurting the innocents who had nothing to do with the burning, like in Afghanistan for example. They have nothing to do with this, but the anger will be too hot for sensibility and thinking.

The love for God, The quran and Mohammad (PBUH) is huge for Muslims.

I can seriously tell you that to us this is like the killing of your Family in public infront of your eyes. It is that sensitive to us. Considering that, what will be the best approach.

Did you watch Law Abiding Citizen ? ... His reaction was extreme, but i was 100% with what he did to the two criminals that killed his family, until he started killing the innocent.

yes, it is sensitive but it is not personal. if some guy wants to burn Qur'an, that is between him and God, not between you and him. if you believe Qur'an to be word of God as i do, then you'd imagine what kind of thing for a person (or them) to burn that book. if you consider what he would earn by doing it so, you can only feel sorry for him instead of rage and anger. i would suggest any Muslim who take this kind of rebellion personal to calm down. pray for them because that's what they need; help. it is ignorance. if we were to be punished for our ignorance, we would all suffer badly. like everyone else you'd do as you wish but it is just how i am taught and i am willing to stick with it because it is humane. not just Muslims, IMO every single human should be careful when they react. because most of people, even though they have right to give reaction, becomes 'guilty' because of the quality of reaction they give. lately i see it very often (i don't mean you or this issue spesificly) people act very cruel as they fight against cruelty. that's tragic because they think they are doing right. yet they slightly turn into what they oppose

.