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Quran is free of errors

gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
zhakir said:
Period of the Sun's Orbit around the Galaxy (Cosmic Year)
Quran didn't say the the sun orbits the earth,it's pointing to the fact that Sun and moon have different orbits.and This right.
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You're hedging, zhakir.

It doesn't say the sun is orbiting the "galaxy".

Your link is pointless and wasted, because I know that the sun around the galaxy. It is not about the real astronomy that is the issue. The real issue is that Qur'an got it wrong in that passage.

Can you prove, or is that just your assumption?

You have typically taken the passage out of context.

The whole quote is written in relationship to the view on earth. It speak of the sun and moon, but not the galaxy. It also speak of day and night, nothing about the galaxy. With that in mind, clearly it is referring to earth.

While the sun may be travelling along the same celestial equator as the moon and planets (except Pluto), both of the heavenly bodies is spoken in relation to the earth. It did not speak of any star, let alone the entire galaxy.

And since it talk of the orbits of both sun and moon, together with day and night, then clearly it indicate it is talking about the sun's orbit around the earth.

You have proven to me, that Muslims like to make thing up, when someone proven you that the Qur'an is wrong. The Muslims will never admit their scripture could be wrong, only showed that they are stubborn, even if it meant lying or exaggerating.
 
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Gharib

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
gnostic said:
You're hedging, zhakir.

It doesn't say the sun is orbiting the "galaxy".

Your link is pointless and wasted, because I know that the sun around the galaxy. It is not about the real astronomy that is the issue. The real issue is that Qur'an got it wrong in that passage.

Can you prove, or is that just your assumption?

You have typically taken the passage out of context.

The whole quote is written in relationship to the view on earth. It speak of the sun and moon, but not the galaxy. It also speak of day and night, nothing about the galaxy. With that in mind, clearly it is referring to earth.

While the sun may be travelling along the same celestial equator as the moon and planets (except Pluto), both of the heavenly bodies is spoken in relation to the earth. It did not speak of any star, let alone the entire galaxy.

And since it talk of the orbits of both sun and moon, together with day and night, then clearly it indicate it is talking about the sun's orbit around the earth.

You have proven to me, that Muslims like to make thing up, when someone proven you that the Qur'an is wrong. The Muslims will never admit their scripture could be wrong, only showed that they are stubborn, even if it meant lying or exaggerating.
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whats the problem gnostic, what do you need clarifying out?
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
eselam said:
whats the problem gnostic, what do you need clarifying out?
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Don't need clarification. I am already doing a bit of clarifying. just want admission from Muslims that there are some passages, which are clearly wrong. But I would guess that will happen when the pigs can fly.
 
Gharib

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
gnostic said:
Don't need clarification. I am already doing a bit of clarifying. just want admission from Muslims that there are some passages, which are clearly wrong. But I would guess that will happen when the pigs can fly.
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can i see the passages?

and pigs don't fly. donkeys do. :p
 
Gharib

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
gnostic said:
The Qur'an still believed in the classical geocentric system of the planets.

The Qur'an seemed to state the sun orbit around the earth, instead of the other way around:



It's only with Copernicus and Galileo, that science have disprove this Ptolemy's geocentric system.

See my last 2 posts in Why the Qur'an has no scientific values thread that explain why.
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well i can answer this if you want me to, but i can't take zhakirs' answer and elaborate on his points, i don't have that kind of knowledge to speak about that.
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
eselam said:
well i can answer this if you want me to, but i can't take zhakirs' answer and elaborate on his points, i don't have that kind of knowledge to speak about that.
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Are you suggesting that Zhak actually has some kind of knowledge on anything? :rolleyes:
 
Gharib

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
YmirGF said:
Absolutely. I have yet to see anything particularly evocative in what he has written. He just sounds like a trained parrot.
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is that why it's taken about 300 posts for none of you to dissprove any of his points?

and may i add, it's one of him against many of you.
 
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kai

kai

ragamuffin
eselam said:
is that why it's taken about 300 posts for none of you to dissprove any of his points?

and may i add, it's one of him against many of you.
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in fact its taken about 300 posts for no one to dissprove any of his points to him not to dissprove them.
 
Gharib

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
kai said:
in fact its taken about 300 posts for no one to dissprove any of his points to him not to dissprove them.
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please don't use that kind of language, i don't get what you are saying.

can you say it in a less complicated way?
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
Let's look at it in this way.

We will ignore the "science" (or astronomy) and "religion" aspect out of the picture for a moment and just look at the context of passage. This is the text:

Quran 21:36 said:
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
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Now it is most important to keep whatever you read, whether it be science book or religious text in the right context, right?

Now let examine or concentrate the first part (in red) of this verse:

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
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It is referring to the sun and moon. Where do you think you see the sun and moon?

On earth, outside.

The moon can appear during the day or night, but most people would notice the moon at night, because it's more visible around time (ignoring the clouds). And you will obviously see the sun only during daytime.

The passage make no mention of the stars. I know that the sun is a star too, but we are only interested in one star, because that's what we have in that verse.

Are you still with me?

With that in mind, everything so far is related to the earth. The Qur'an was written for you and me to read, so if you were talking about galaxy, would Muhammad or the Muslims back then know what the Qur'an was talking about?

If you add galaxy, as Zhakir did, then the verse would be out of context.

Now, we get to the second part:

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
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Clearly, the day and night has a lot to do with what happening on earth, where you are living. We experience night and day. (Ignoring for a moment about the arctic circles, which experience no day or night during either winter or summer. Most people don't live in that area)

It make far more sense that this part and the previous referred to the earth, even when the word "earth" is not mentioned. Galaxy is also not mention, hence it would be out of context, if you interpret to mean galaxy. The galaxy don't experience night and day.

Finally in the last part, we have the last sentence about orbit:

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
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Few people used to believe the centre of the planetary system was the sun (heliocentric), but most people believe the opposite, and think the earth was the centre (geocentric system).

The sun follow the same path in the sky as the moon, and the planets. This path is called the "celestial equator" or the "zodaic equator", because the 12 zodaic constellations are always located on this path too.

At the time of Muhamamd, only 7 planets were visible, and the sun and moon were considered to be planets too (the other planets being Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn). Because the sun go through the sky along zodaic equator, the ancient people thought the sun was a planet too, and it would orbit around the our sky (from our point of view on earth) like the moon and planets. Hence, the geocentric system.

More people believed in the geocentric than the heliocentric system, and this is not proven until the time of Galileo. Copernicus believed in the heliocentric, but couldn't really prove it.

Getting back to the quote.

Whether you believe that Allah wrote the Qur'an or Muhammad, the last sentence on that verse, clearly indicated it followed the geocentric system. It make sense, if we keep the entire verse in context, and that Qur'an believed that sun "orbits" around the earth, like the moon orbits around the earth.

The whole verse is tied up by the earth.

Zhakir, on the other hand, completely ignored the context of the verse, by introducing the galaxy. But I don't think Muhammad knew about the galaxy, and all Zhakir is doing is "hedging".

The geocentric system is wrong. And the author of Qur'an did know it is wrong. There is error in the Qur'an. Whether you or other Muslims would admit that there's an error in the Qur'an, I won't be holding my breath of any such admission.
 
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Gharib

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
where did you come up with that reply?

can we go one question at a time, it's hard for me to answer all this at once.

so would it be alright to post your first question again, and is it possible to use a less complicated language? i don't understand some of the parts you've posted such as;

It is referring to the sun and moon. Where do you think you see the sun and moon?

On earth, outside.
Click to expand...

whats that mean? are they together or seperate statements?

The passage make no mention of the stars. I know that the sun is a star too, but we are only interested in one star, because that's what we have in that verse.
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lost me with that one. why bring it up if we aren't going to speak about it and if the sun is already a star?

what i'm saying is that, can you avoid posting something that isn't really relevant. just get to the point if possible, in a less complicated way. will that be ok by you?
 
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