Quran is free of errors

[Fatihah]

Twist it is. I would call it limited imagination, though. And certainly without logic or common sense, let alone lacking understanding real astronomy.

If the Muslims are so interested in the Truth, then they should misleading people with their so-called scientific miracles.

All the verses about 7 heaven, sun, moon and stars (and djinns) are not even suitable for children's fable, let alone the scientific field of astronomy.

If a single Muslim went to science conference about the djinns being driven away the stars in the lowest heaven, they would be laugh out the conference. Islam would be the laughingstock of the scientific communities.

Response: The fact that you have no evidence for your claims clearly show who has the imagination. However, as I stated before, what you are actually reading is another example of the scientific miracles of the qur'an. The 7 heaven refer to the fact that the earth's atmosphere is made up of several layers. The qur'an tells us that it is made up of 7. And as we know today, the atmosphere is made of 7 different layers. They are:

The stratosphere, the troposphere, the Ozone layer, the mesosphere, the thermosphere,the ionosphere, and the exosphere. This fact, which scientists have discovered only recently through advanced technology, was mentioned in the qur'an 1400 years ago.

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

 

[Shahzad]

The stratosphere, the troposphere, the Ozone layer, the mesosphere, the thermosphere,the ionosphere, and the exosphere. This fact, which scientists have discovered only recently through advanced technology, was mentioned in the qur'an 1400 years ago.

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

A few points for your edification (yeah right!). If the Quran was referring to the atmosphere that would mean the Quran says that stars are in the lowest level of the atmosphere. Regardless, the seven heavens idea long predates Islam so the Quran can't be given the credit for introducing it.

Given these two points in mind can you see how shamelessly moronic it is to claim it as some kind of miracle? Do you really think you're fooling anyone?

 

[darkendless]

Response: The fact that you have no evidence for your claims clearly show who has the imagination. However, as I stated before, what you are actually reading is another example of the scientific miracles of the qur'an. The 7 heaven refer to the fact that the earth's atmosphere is made up of several layers. The qur'an tells us that it is made up of 7. And as we know today, the atmosphere is made of 7 different layers. They are:

The stratosphere, the troposphere, the Ozone layer, the mesosphere, the thermosphere,the ionosphere, and the exosphere. This fact, which scientists have discovered only recently through advanced technology, was mentioned in the qur'an 1400 years ago.

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Please show evidence for your claims. What continually annoys the hell out of me, is if the Quran revealed this 1400 years ago, then THIS IS NOT NEW TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE THE MUSLIMS DISCOVERED IT 1400 YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But we're only hearing this now. So what muslims scholars are doing is finding new meanings for scripture.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Shahzad]A few points for your edification (yeah right!). If the Quran was referring to the atmosphere that would mean the Quran says that stars are in the lowest level of the atmosphere. Regardless, the seven heavens idea long predates Islam so the Quran can't be given the credit for introducing it.

Response: There's a statement. Now all we need is the proof.

Quote: Shahzad
Given these two points in mind can you see how shamelessly moronic it is to claim it as some kind of miracle? Do you really think you're fooling anyone?

Response: Look at your own response. You yourself couldn't even provide a logical rebuttle to refute anything I said. Your own response is evidence to the miracle in the qur'an despite the fact that you won't acknowledge it.

 

[Fatihah]

Please show evidence for your claims. What continually annoys the hell out of me, is if the Quran revealed this 1400 years ago, then THIS IS NOT NEW TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE THE MUSLIMS DISCOVERED IT 1400 YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But we're only hearing this now. So what muslims scholars are doing is finding new meanings for scripture.

Response: You're right. It's not a technology. The atmosphere of the earth is not technology so I don't know what you mean here. It was through advanced technology of today that it was known that this is true which makes the statement in the qur'an a miracle because without advanced technology, it was established in the qur'an as fact. How did Muhammad know of this without modern technology? Because it is Allah, the all wise and all knowing who informed him, and Allah needs no technology.

 

[Ghostaka]

Regardless, the seven heavens idea long predates Islam...

Why do you seem to forget the Allah also revealed the Torah and Injeel (Bible) ... which were chronologically before the Quran? In order for us to be Muslim, we must bear witness that the Torah and Bible are the word of the same ONE source. Then OF COURSE the seven heavens would have been meantioned before! You comment below is nullified because you have not understood your own points.

Given these two points in mind can you see how shamelessly moronic it is to claim it as some kind of miracle? Do you really think you're fooling anyone?

If something that was mentioned a long time ago (and claimed to be true at the time).... then it is finally discovered to be (actually) true after a long time...... what is that called?!

Peace be upon you.

 

[Shahzad]

Response: Look at your own response. You yourself couldn't even provide a logical rebuttle to refute anything I said. Your own response is evidence to the miracle in the qur'an despite the fact that you won't acknowledge it.

That is pathetic, is that your only answer? I already stated that if you take seven heavens to mean atmospheric layers the Quran states that stars are in the lowest atmospheric layer. To that you have no reply.

Are you really so ignorant as to believe the seven heavens myth originated with the Quran?

I've yet to see you or any other Muslim back up anything you say about the Quran with evidence.

 

[Shahzad]

Why do you seem to forget the Allah also revealed the Torah and Injeel (Bible) ... which were chronologically before the Quran? In order for us to be Muslim, we must bear witness that the Torah and Bible are the word of the same ONE source. Then OF COURSE the seven heavens would have been meantioned before!

Who says that the concept of seven heavens originated in the Bible? It didn't. If you're saying it does it's up to you to prove it.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Shahzad]That is pathetic, is that your only answer? I already stated that if you take seven heavens to mean atmospheric layers the Quran states that stars are in the lowest atmospheric layer. To that you have no reply.

Response: Because it's not refuting anything. Your statement above is not proving anything to be wrong. So there's nothing to comment on.

Quote: Shahzad
Are you really so ignorant as to believe the seven heavens myth originated with the Quran?


I've yet to see you or any other Muslim back up anything you say about the Quran with evidence.

Response: Your own response is evidence.

 

[Shahzad]

Because it's not refuting anything. Your statement above is not proving anything to be wrong. So there's nothing to comment on.

If you can't see why it refutes your airy atmospheric interpretation then you're an idiot to put it frankly.

I'll put it in the simplest way possible.

The Quran states that stars are in the lowest heaven.

If we interpret heavens to mean atmospheric layers then the Quran says stars are in the lowest atmospheric layer, the troposphere.

Stars are not in the troposphere (I don't think Fatihah knew that).

I'll let others draw the inevitable conclusion.

Now carry on defending the incoherent rantings of a 7th century religious fanatic.

 

[Ghostaka]

Is this supposed to be a startling revelation? Given that I am the writer of the words, it should be expected that I understand my own thinking.

Exactly, it is your own thinking. Why is it that when an author writes a manuscript/article, they give it to their editor no matter how foolproof they think it is (they are only human).... it is because you cannot notice your own errors. I'm sure you understand that factor. It's not like I'm free of errors myself... therefore I quote from the Qur'an to substantiate my comments. Allah knows best.

Part of the reason I remain a disbliever is because of the seemingly endless warnings about eternal torture in the Hellfire.

Are you sure you would be any different if it was the images of Paradise that we propagated to you? You mentioned that you read the Qur'an 3 times yourself, did you not see the abundant references to Paradise then? If you would prefer me switch to that tell me because I have no problem in doing so.

I don't suppose you can prove the fascinating notion that Islam is perfect, can you? I will assume that you understand some of the inherent problems with concepts of perfection.

I can only use the word of Allah as proof since He is Perfect:

And We have never sent a messenger except with the tongue of his people that he might make clear to them. {The Holy Qur'an 14:4}

Move not your tongue with it to hasten it. Surely it is upon Us to gather it and to recite it. So, when We recite it, follow its recitation. Then surely it is upon Us to make it clear.{The Holy Qur'an 75:16-19}

And We have sent down unto you the revelations (al-Dhikr) that you might make clear to humankind that which has been sent down to them. {The Holy Qur'an 16:44}

By the star when it goes down, your companion is neither astray nor being misled, nor does he speak of desire, it is naught except an inspiration that is inspired. {The Holy Qur'an 53:1-4}

But nay, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you the judge of what is in dispute between them, then they shall find in themselves no dislike of that which you have decreed, and submit in full submission. {The Holy Qur'an 4:65}

Surely it is We who have sent down the revelations (al-Dhikr), and We surely are its Guardian. {The Holy Qur'an 15:9}

. . . Today I have perfected your religion for you, and have completed My favor upon you, and have approved for you Islam as religion. . . {The Holy Qur'an 5: Quote mid verse 3}

Yes, I have heard of this, but frankly see little evidence that the process actually works. If I did see evidence that it worked I might give it a try. If you have any scientific research about this small point feel free to give me the names of the peer reviewed journals that the papers were presented in.

So you agree that the only thing stopping you from doing so is choice and not the claim for more evidence even after it has already been given to you. Your missing the point; which is that your are not a Muslim because you just don't want to try! So why do you keep reverting back to your "not a miracle" issue?

And He has sent down upon you the Book and the wisdom, and has taught you what you did not know before. {The Holy Quran 4:113}

He it is who has sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own; to recite unto them His ayah-s (verses), and to purify them, and to teach them the Book and the wisdom. {The Holy Qur'an 62:2}

My friend, it seems to me that you are letting your eyes skip past the verses I quote from the Qur'an because of the nature of your questions. Please try.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Ghostaka]

Who says that the concept of seven heavens originated in the Bible? It didn't. If you're saying it does it's up to you to prove it.

I will only prove it by quoting the verses. Have you not noticed that I have already done so!? What kind of proof would you accept now? Don't tell me you want some scientific facts because us humans do not have enough knowledge to prove it! Allah knows best.

This is why I quote Qur'anic verses to you. Realize this please.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Shahzad]If you can't see why it refutes your airy atmospheric interpretation then you're an idiot to put it frankly.

I'll put it in the simplest way possible.

The Quran states that stars are in the lowest heaven.

If we interpret heavens to mean atmospheric layers then the Quran says stars are in the lowest atmospheric layer, the troposphere.

Stars are not in the troposphere (I don't think Fatihah knew that).

I'll let others draw the inevitable conclusion.

Now carry on defending the incoherent rantings of a 7th century religious fanatic.

Response: It took you three posts to finally understand what "refute" means. NOW you mention that the stars are not in the lower heaven while in your other two responses you left this statement out and still wanted to claim that you've refuted something. Again, no you weren't. Now you are. It took you three posts to do so but at least you made it.

Nonetheless, the problem now is that once again you've made a statement. Now we wait for the most important part, where's the proof?

 

[.lava]

did muslims not reveal science to the world?

we have teachings, conversations on verses. there are some stuff not even scientists know today. well, not yet at least.


.

 

[Shahzad]

It took you three posts to finally understand what "refute" means. NOW you mention that the stars are not in the lower heaven while in your other two responses you left this statement out and still wanted to claim that you've refuted something. Again, no you weren't. Now you are. It took you three posts to do so but at least you made it.

Nobody should have to point out to you the problem with stating that the stars are in the troposphere, unless you have no scientific background which you obviously don't. It's your problem for not understanding it the first time. You also don't seem to know the Quran itself very well if you had to be reminded that it states stars are in the lowest heaven. If you can't see why this presents a problem to the ludicrous claim of seven heavens meaning seven atmospheric layers then there really is no point continuing this any further. You've also yet to prove that the seven heavens myth originated with either the Quran or Bible.

I'm beginning to see you really have a problem following a clear argument, a common trait with fundamentalists.

 

[.lava]

You also don't seem to know the Quran itself very well if you had to be reminded...

we are all students and still learning. it is OK if a Muslim could not recall a verse which is ordinary situation for any human to forget and it happens to everyone. a friendly one would remind him with kind attitude i hope. learning process does not end with Qur'an so we keep learning from our teachers, our Imams and from each other.

btw, you say such a thing, could you quote that "significant" sentence where Fatihah claimed to know entire Qur'an perfectly?


.

 

[Fatihah]

Nobody should have to point out to you the problem with stating that the stars are in the troposphere, unless you have no scientific background which you obviously don't. It's your problem for not understanding it the first time. You also don't seem to know the Quran itself very well if you had to be reminded that it states stars are in the lowest heaven. If you can't see why this presents a problem to the ludicrous claim of seven heavens meaning seven atmospheric layers then there really is no point continuing this any further. You've also yet to prove that the seven heavens myth originated with either the Quran or Bible.

I'm beginning to see you really have a problem following a clear argument, a common trait with fundamentalists.

Response: But that's the whole point. Nowhere in the qur'an does it state stars are in the the lowest heaven or the troposphere .

 

[Fatihah]

we are all students and still learning. it is OK if a Muslim could not recall a verse which is ordinary situation for any human to forget and it happens to everyone. a friendly one would remind him with kind attitude i hope. learning process does not end with Qur'an so we keep learning from our teachers, our Imams and from each other.

btw, you say such a thing, could you quote that "significant" sentence where Fatihah claimed to know entire Qur'an perfectly?


.

Response. Yes. My modesty and my humility prevents me from saying that I know it all. But no worries, what I don't know, I don't address. But if I do mention something of the qur'an, believe me sister, it has been thoroughly researched. I know the verse he's speaking of and I haven't forgot. There's actually three of them. He thinks he has me cornered but little does he know of how much I know of the qur'an by heart. So while he's googling, I'm just sitting back and waiting to respond.

 

[gnostic]

The fact that you have no evidence for your claims clearly show who has the imagination. However, as I stated before, what you are actually reading is another example of the scientific miracles of the qur'an.

As I said, read Ptolemy's treatises on astronomy and astrology - Almagest and Tetrabiblos. They are my evidences. It speak at length about the stars, sun, moon and the 5 known planets of the time (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn). It speak of the 7 heavens frequently.

Ptolemy's works predate Muhammad's Qur'an by several centuries, and flourished in 2nd century CE. And both treatises were well-known, both east and west.

Do you own investigation/research.

And the 7 heavens were given at length in 2 Enoch. The only surviving Slavonic manuscripts, but fragments written in Greek in the 1st century BCE and in the Dead Sea Scrolls written in Hebrew and Aramaic. The fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls may not have anything on 7 heavens, but the Slavonic translation (translated from the Greek texts) tell of the whole story.

From chapter 1 to 30 of 2 Enoch, it speak of Enoch's journey through the 7 heavens. The chapters are very short, and even you could read 30 chapters without a problem. Read 2 Enoch here.

Look up the evidences for yourself, fatihah.

 

[Ghostaka]

So while he's googling, I'm just sitting back and waiting to respond.

Nice , 'my main man'.

As I said, read Ptolemy's treatises on astronomy and astrology - Almagest and Tetrabiblos. They are my evidences.

I know it might be difficult for you to picture - but just for a minute... think that it is true and Allah exists. Do you accept that His knowledge is infinitely more than humans can comprehend (and is free from imperfection)? Then take note that Allah revealed the Qur'an. Why would you refute Qur'anic verses (we Muslims quote as evidence) that come from a Perfect source?

Peace be upon you.