Quran is free of errors

[JMorris]

Response: That's not evidence. That's information. You are claiming that your information is what the qur'an is referring to. That is where you have no proof. You have come up with your own assertions in order to validate your point, but that does not make your point true. You simply saying that Ptolemy's work being referred to in the qur'an does not make it true. Proving that this is the case makes it true.

can i assume that since gnostic's interpretation of the quran is invalid, that your interpretation is equally invalid? all we're dealing with here are interpretations. or did god speak to you personally, and tell you exactly what everything in the quran means?

i have seen no "proof" of anything from you or any other muslim on this thread other than "we are muslim, so we know; you are not muslim, so you dont know"

 

[Fatihah]

Gnostic isn't Islamic, to anyone but muslims Quranic scripture is a waste of paper.

The point a lot of us are trying to get at, is, if the Quran is full of scientific miracles, then muslims should have known 1400 years ago. But now that non-muslims are making discoveries, you're claiming that the Quran found them 1400 years ago. However, if the Quran found them 1400 years ago, we'd have known about it 1400 years ago, and not 300 years ago. So what scholars are doing is making the Quran fit to science. There is no merit in that.

Response: But you did know. Or at least, you were informed. But you rejected it because it was from Allah. 1400+ years ago, the only logic we had to back up the claim is "because Allah said so". So non-muslims like yourself rejected it because you are not muslims.

What makes it a miracle is because through advanced technology of today, these things were confirmed to be true to the non-muslims. But 1400+ years ago, this technology did not exists and yet it is still determined to be a fact in the qur'an.

 

[Fatihah]

can i assume that since gnostic's interpretation of the quran is invalid, that your interpretation is equally invalid?

Response: Sure, if you can prove it to be invalid.

Quote: JMorris
all we're dealing with here are interpretations. or did god speak to you personally, and tell you exactly what everything in the quran means?

Response: He told Muhhammad (pbuh) what it means and anyone who is humble and open-minded can understand the meaning as well.

Quote: JMorris
i have seen no "proof" of anything from you or any other muslim on this thread other than "we are muslim, so we know; you are not muslim, so you dont know"

Response: You have never challenged any reasoning fully either or produced any proof that the qur'an is in error either. So if you don't know something, that would be due to your actions.

 

[Shahzad]

Response: The word "heavens" or "firaments" refer to the earth's atmosphere. We know so because when it is being used in the qur'an, it's definition is the same as the atmosphere.

If that were the case then it's also saying that the Sun, Moon and stars are in the atmosphere, with stars in the lowest layer. The twisted interpretation of heavens as atmosphere is a very recent one and not mainstream at all. It leads to even more absurdities than the standard interpretation.

For the last time, regardless of how it's interpreted the concept of seven heavens predates the Quran and Bible!

 

[JMorris]

Response: Sure, if you can prove it to be invalid.

Islam cant be proven to be true or untrue. so how could anyone prove that an interpretation of Islam to be true or untrue? gnostic's interpretation is either equally valid as yours, or your interpretation is equally as invalid as his. either all interpretations are valid, or all interpretations are invalid.

Response: You have never challenged any reasoning fully either or produced any proof that the qur'an is in error either. So if you don't know something, that would be due to your actions.

proving that the quran "is in error" isnt my responsibility. you are claiming it is perfect, which you have yet to prove. for me, the fact that the quran claims that humans are made of clay is all the proof i need that the quran "is in error". now, if you were to ask if the quran was FULL 100% of errors, i would probably say no. not everything in the quran can be proven to be true or untrue, so you cant prove that it is 100% true, or 100% untrue. but like i said, humans arent made of clay, so the quran isnt "free of errors". that pretty much ends the debate on this thread for me.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Shahzad]If that were the case then it's also saying that the Sun, Moon and stars are in the atmosphere, with stars in the lowest layer. The twisted interpretation of heavens as atmosphere is a very recent one and not mainstream at all. It leads to even more absurdities than the standard interpretation.

Response: And you still have failed to provide any proof that the qur'an says that the stars are in the lowest layer.

Quote: Shahzad
For the last time, regardless of how it's interpreted the concept of seven heavens predates the Quran and Bible!

Response: No one and no where was it stated that the 7 layers of the atmosphere is fact before the qur'an mentioned it as such. Since you claim that it was, produce your proof.

 

[Fatihah]

Islam cant be proven to be true or untrue. so how could anyone prove that an interpretation of Islam to be true or untrue? gnostic's interpretation is either equally valid as yours, or your interpretation is equally as invalid as his. either all interpretations are valid, or all interpretations are invalid.

Response: The qur'an can and has been proven to be true.

Quote: JMorris
proving that the quran "is in error" isnt my responsibility. you are claiming it is perfect, which you have yet to prove. for me, the fact that the quran claims that humans are made of clay is all the proof i need that the quran "is in error". now, if you were to ask if the quran was FULL 100% of errors, i would probably say no. not everything in the quran can be proven to be true or untrue, so you cant prove that it is 100% true, or 100% untrue. but like i said, humans arent made of clay, so the quran isnt "free of errors". that pretty much ends the debate on this thread for me.

Response: But you have not proven that humans are not made of clay. But to clear things up, when the qur'an speaks of man being created from clay, he is referring to one man alone, Adam. He was the very first man and was created from clay. If this is an error, you must have the right answer. So what is the answer? How was the first man created? You provide nothing. So your own response shows that you have no logical reasoning to call it an error.

As for me not providing any proof, again you have not pointed out any error in any of my claims. If you can't point out the error and supply the right answer, you have no logical reason to say that it has not been proven.

 

[McBell]

Response: The qur'an can and has been proven to be true.

Not in this thread.
Not on this forum.
In fact, not on any forum I have been on.

The only thing that has been done is some people saying it has been proven.
Yet with all their talk, they present nothing that would constitute 'proof'.
They present, at best, their opinion that it has been proven.

Response: But you have not proven that humans are not made of clay.

and in the world of debate, well the real world, not your fantasy land, it is on the person making the claim to support their claim.

You have done nothing to support your claim other than jump up and down screaming that the koran said it and since you think the koran is from god, it has to be correct.

Sadly, this circular reasoning only works for your choir.

If this is an error, you must have the right answer.

Even my eight year old understands that this statement is merely desperation logic.

So what is the answer? How was the first man created? You provide nothing. So your own response shows that you have no logical reasoning to call it an error.

More desperation logic.

As for me not providing any proof, again you have not pointed out any error in any of my claims.

There is a difference between "not pointing out errors" and "refusing to see an error for what it is."

Your mastery of the second does not make the errors go away.

If you can't point out the error and supply the right answer, you have no logical reason to say that it has not been proven.

I know you will not be able to understand it because your beliefs will not let you, but one does not have to present (or even know) the right answer to point out errors.

 

[Shahzad]

Response: And you still have failed to provide any proof that the qur'an says that the stars are in the lowest layer.

This is my final response to you on this topic, because I can see you won't try to back up anything you say.

Oh ffs, this is getting ridiculous. Did you forget about the verse that mentioned "We have adorned the lowest one with lights"? Regardless of that, stars, Moon and Sun are not in any layer of the atmosphere. You seem to forget or simply ignore things that have been mentioned to you just a few posts ago, I don't have to repeat it. You're becoming a joke now.

Response: No one and no where was it stated that the 7 layers of the atmosphere is fact before the qur'an mentioned it as such. Since you claim that it was, produce your proof.

This is a train wreck! All the Quran mentions is the seven heavens, not layers of atmosphere. Now you're claiming that Quran states that seven heavens refers to atmospheric layers (which also contain Sun, Moon and stars), it doesn't. It just mentions the same seven heavens going back to ancient times, except with stars in the lowest heaven. Don't think people don't notice you trying to change the goalposts when you can't defend your statements. How cowardly.

Fatihah is a prime example of a mind crippled by fundamentalism.

 

[Fatihah]

Not in this thread.
Not on this forum.
In fact, not on any forum I have been on.

The only thing that has been done is some people saying it has been proven.
Yet with all their talk, they present nothing that would constitute 'proof'.
They present, at best, their opinion that it has been proven.


and in the world of debate, well the real world, not your fantasy land, it is on the person making the claim to support their claim.

You have done nothing to support your claim other than jump up and down screaming that the koran said it and since you think the koran is from god, it has to be correct.

Sadly, this circular reasoning only works for your choir.


Even my eight year old understands that this statement is merely desperation logic.


More desperation logic.


There is a difference between "not pointing out errors" and "refusing to see an error for what it is."

Your mastery of the second does not make the errors go away.


I know you will not be able to understand it because your beliefs will not let you, but one does not have to present (or even know) the right answer to point out errors.

Response: It has been proven throughout this forum and your own words has confirmed this. When asked to answer the challenge of the qur'an to prove it's authenticity, you responded:

[QUOTE:Mestemia]To answer your completely irrelevant question, I do not know.

There, now fly back to your flock and claim your shallow irrelevant "victory".(End quote) (post 615 of the "Propaganda: Why is it necessary for islam" thread).

Your own words show as an example of your denial to the truth of the qur'an.

 

[McBell]

Your own words show as an example of your denial to the truth of the qur'an.

I cannot deny that which has never been shown.

You seem to have serious problems understanding this fact.

 

[Fatihah]

I cannot deny that which has never been shown.

You seem to have serious problems understanding this fact.

Response: Not according to your own words in post 830.

 

[McBell]

Response: Not according to your own words in post 830.

Correction: Not according to what you think/want my words you present in post #830 to say.

 

[YmirGF]

I cannot deny that which has never been shown.

You seem to have serious problems understanding this fact.

I think you are being too kind, Mes.

For the edification of the Muslims on RF here is a pretty good explanation of the Forer Effect.

... but using your points as a springboard ...

Fatihah is a fanatic of the first order and it should be obvious by now that he/she/it doesn't think in logical terms. His/her/its repeated assertions that the Qur'an has been proven to be true, where in fact they have not been, is a bit mind-numbing. Apparently, Muslims have their evidentiary bar set rather low and quite necessarily. In Fatihah's bizarre world, if something cannot be proven to be false, then it is true. We can only conclude that he/she/it also believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Unicorns, UFO's and elves as no one has ever proven that they do not exist.

For example, the breathtaking idiocy of stating that no one has proven that Adam was not made out of clay does stretch credulity out of all proportion and renders his/her/its credibility below zero.

What many people fail to grasp is that in Muslims circles, the Qur'an is the definitive answer and so all arguments must reference suitable passages to be accepted. (Yes, you read that right. You have to use the Qur'an to prove or disprove the Qur'an. O_O Ummm, fat chance on that one.) You have to remember that Muslims have been blathering about all this rubbish for 1400 years and so they have had a very long time to get their story straight. (Yes, these discussions about alleged "scientific miracles" are a new innovation but the ideas are built on the backs of very old thinking.) It's for this reason that I have often recommended that non-Muslims leave the Qur'an aside as every conceivable argument has already been made - a thousand times over. The prize is to attack Muhammad, as he is the weak link in the chain. Have you ever wondered why Muslims get so snaky when anyone says anything less than flattering about their so-called prophet? It's because he is the cornerstone and the most vulnerable target.

Heck, I doubt your garden variety Muslim will even admit that Muslims have made Muhammad into a demigod -- a partner of Allah -- which is clearly a breach of Islamic rules. You see, in Islam there is another Trinity and that Trinity is:

1. Allah
2. Muhammad
3. The Qur'an

At least Moses got a pretty etched tablet, or so the story goes.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:YmirGF]
I think you are being too kind, Mes.

For the edification of the Muslims on RF here is a pretty good explanation of the Forer Effect.

... but using your points as a springboard ...

Fatihah is a fanatic of the first order and it should be obvious by now that he/she/it doesn't think in logical terms. His/her/its repeated assertions that the Qur'an has been proven to be true, where in fact they have not been, is a bit mind-numbing. Apparently, Muslims have their evidentiary bar set rather low and quite necessarily. In Fatihah's bizarre world, if something cannot be proven to be false, then it is true. We can only conclude that he/she/it also believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Unicorns, UFO's and elves as no one has ever proven that they do not exist.

For example, the breathtaking idiocy of stating that no one has proven that Adam was not made out of clay does stretch credulity out of all proportion and renders his/her/its credibility below zero.

What many people fail to grasp is that in Muslims circles, the Qur'an is the definitive answer and so all arguments must reference suitable passages to be accepted. (Yes, you read that right. You have to use the Qur'an to prove or disprove the Qur'an. O_O Ummm, fat chance on that one.) You have to remember that Muslims have been blathering about all this rubbish for 1400 years and so they have had a very long time to get their story straight. (Yes, these discussions about alleged "scientific miracles" are a new innovation but the ideas are built on the backs of very old thinking.) It's for this reason that I have often recommended that non-Muslims leave the Qur'an aside as every conceivable argument has already been made - a thousand times over. The prize is to attack Muhammad, as he is the weak link in the chain. Have you ever wondered why Muslims get so snaky when anyone says anything less than flattering about their so-called prophet? It's because he is the cornerstone and the most vulnerable target.

Heck, I doubt your garden variety Muslim will even admit that Muslims have made Muhammad into a demigod -- a partner of Allah -- which is clearly a breach of Islamic rules. You see, in Islam there is another Trinity and that Trinity is:

1. Allah
2. Muhammad
3. The Qur'an

At least Moses got a pretty etched tablet, or so the story goes.[/QUOTE]

Response: The qur'an has also been proven from my own argument according to your own words. What we clearly have from you and what you have demonstrated throughout the forum is a serious case of denial. You don't want the truth, nor would you even acknowledge it because your ego is driven by the desire to be right. Your arguments are so poor that even you yourself know that they are. What bothers you the most is that everyone knows it, despite your desperate effort to portray them as though they are not. But even greater than your desire to be right is your desire to be right....over me, Fatihah. The following words from another thread below show evidence to this which coincidently is similar to your words above:

Quote: YmirGF
I thought I was being rather generous with you on this one, Fatihah. Can I assume you still have hurt feelings about being so utterly defeated in the "scientific miracles" thread?
I am curious though why you think my comments are somehow immature. Is this a weak attempt at attacking my credibility, Fatihah? (End quote)


[QUOTE:Fatihah]Response: The bigger question is why you would assume that I would have hurt feelings about being "allegedly" defeated in the "scientific miracles" thread? Your own words obviously show who feels defeated because here I am on another thread discussing another topic and yet here you are bringing it up. The debate obviously made an impact on you and convincingly demonstrated who feels defeated. Otherwise you would not have brought it up. Clearly it's still on your mind. These are the actions of a person who wants to redeem themself.

There is no need when referring to me to say "him/her/its" as you have in post 172. There is a male gender sign right next to my name. You don't behave this way to anyone else. But like I said, just your two recent post alone on this thread shows who feels defeated as well as your level of maturity. However, carry on (because I know you will) because by doing so I don't even have to open my mouth in proving your maturity and desire for redemption. Your own words will do it for me.

Bismilahir Rahmanir Rahim[/QUOTE]

(Post 180 of the "Jesus in the Qur'an and the Bible" thread)

 

[themadhair]

Response: The qur'an has also been proven from my own argument according to your own words. What we clearly have from you and what you have demonstrated throughout the forum is a serious case of denial. You don't want the truth, nor would you even acknowledge it because your ego is driven by the desire to be right. Your arguments are so poor that even you yourself know that they are. What bothers you the most is that everyone knows it, despite your desperate effort to portray them as though they are not. But even greater than your desire to be right is your desire to be right....over me, Fatihah. The following words from another thread below show evidence to this which coincidently is similar to your words above:

At this stage I think the above has made one thing perfectly cear. Fatihah is not in need of a debate but mockery.

Whenever anybody, regardless of faith or lack thereof, allows their beliefs to corrupt their very thinking processes to the point where they can no longer remain attached to reality, where their very modality of thinking is corrosive and atrophying to rational and empirical inquiry, where they make themselves a laughing stock of insanity – that person needs to be told to cop themselves. When the advice to ‘wise up’ is no longer an option that person needs to have the living **** ripped out of them.

Every single day of my life I have enjoyed the fruits of technology that the work and ingenuity of those using the scientific method and honest empirical inquiry have delivered. Everything you now stand for Fatihah spits in the face of that. You hold the mentality of mindless obedience and slavish stupidity that needs to be left on the dustbin of history as one of history’s greatest failed experiments. I will take technology over your ******* idiocy over and over again. Please return to the 7th century where you truly belong – because a free and fair society that values intellectual honesty and rationality is simply not compatible with the **** you are espousing.

The koranic scientist is merely a person convinced that allah has bestowed them with scientific knowledge – the absolute ******* hilarity being that such divine revelation seems to also have robbed you of anything resembling a scientific understanding.

 

[Ghostaka]

Why is it that when you have been presented with choice of whether to believe in the Qur'an or that Allah exists, you try your utmost best at attacking someone instead.

It is not my concern whether you believe any of us Muslims.

If you unconditionally think that all of Islam and its values are "fake" then why are you trying to convince us with any "information" - not scripture - but information; that non-Muslims are correct in denying Islam < As my brother Fatihah mentioned earlier.

It is almost as if you keep at it just to relieve yourself of your guilty conscious (so that you feel safe to stick with your lack of belief). Otherwise you'd be gone already. We are just trying to help since you pretend to be in distress and poor agnosticism claiming to be atheists. Doesn&#8217;t trying to use the verses of Qur&#8217;an we present to you ourselves demonstrate this to you? I have seen the same in your replies to Christians as well.

We are merely opposing the reasons and ultimatums you present for as an attempt at poorly &#8220;confirming&#8221; to yourselves that Islam is not valid to be followed. When we do this, it leaves you with no more excuses and therefore you immediately gang-up to pathetically attack/mock us and our prophets publicly. What are we supposed to do? Idly sit back and watch you insult our prophets with propaganda. It is the duty of every Muslim to defend their prophet. How weak are you to attack someone that cannot speak for themselves because of absence/death?

Now watch how quickly you will tell yourself what I just said about you is untrue.

The Holy Quran, Surah 109:

1. Say, "O disbelievers,

2. I do not worship what you worship.

3. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.

4. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.

5. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.

6. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

Peace be upon you.

 

[themadhair]

Why is it that when you have been presented with choice of whether to believe in the Qur'an or that Allah exists, you try your utmost best at attacking someone instead.

Because you choice is really about choosing between intellectual integrity and braindeath? You can play the self-righteous indignation card all you want. It doesn&#8217;t make the ignorance you sow any less moronic. And yes &#8211; it is moronic to twist the words of a 7th century text beyond all recognition in a pathetic attempt to ingratiate your ideology to others.

It is not my concern whether you believe any of us Muslims.

Really? Then pray tell why the feats of mental gymnastics then? Or is this merely an exercise where you confuse legitimate criticism with apostasy to reinforce your own mistaken beliefs?

If you unconditionally think that all of Islam and its values are "fake" then why are you trying to convince us with any "information" - not scripture - but information; that non-Muslims are correct in denying Islam < As my brother Fatihah mentioned earlier.

It is ironic that the garbage you and Fatihah are trotting out in the name of Islam does more to cheapen it than anything us non-Muslims are presenting. I have two Muslims friends who would be absolutely disgusted at what you are doing. Cheapening the koran in such a way must be insult to allah if it existed surely?

It is almost as if you keep at it just to relieve yourself of your guilty conscious (so that you feel safe to stick with your lack of belief). Otherwise you'd be gone already.

Do you have any idea the sheer amount of hilarity that is on this very thread??? How could I leave that?? Just when I think it cannot possibly get any worse BAM! It gets worse.

We are just trying to help since you pretend to be in distress and poor agnosticism claiming to be atheists.

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. They are actually separate, but related, issues. One is a stance on god&#8217;s existence and the other is stance on whether such existence is knowable. These definitions never seem to stick though so I&#8217;m sure it is only a matter of time before you err on them again.

Doesn&#8217;t trying to use the verses of Qur&#8217;an we present to you ourselves demonstrate this to you? I have seen the same in your replies to Christians as well.

I don&#8217;t like ideologies that are one-way tickets back to stone-age civilisation. Having met Muslims that do not hold such idiocy concerning these issues I think it fair to say that I am not criticising Islam &#8211; I am criticising your simplistic caricature of it.

We are merely opposing the reasons and ultimatums you present for as an attempt at poorly &#8220;confirming&#8221; to yourselves that Islam is not valid to be followed.

Or more accurately, that your idiotic caricature of it is not valid.

When we do this, it leaves you with no more excuses and therefore you immediately gang-up to pathetically attack/mock us and our prophets publicly. What are we supposed to do?

What are you supposed to do? I would have thought not making completely asinine statements regarding matters of science would be a start. Not crapping the thread with blatant examples of the forer effect might be another. Or, the best of the lot, why not try avoiding claims of miracles that make you look ignorant, clueless and desperate? That last one is good advice. The Roman Catholics realised that one and are much more respectable for it.

Idly sit back and watch you insult our prophets with propaganda. It is the duty of every Muslim to defend their prophet.

Propaganda? Please get a clue Ghostaka. Stating that the writings of Muhammad reflect his time isn&#8217;t propaganda but simple observation. If such a simple observation cause such great offence to you then maybe you might try following an Islam more in tune with reality? Just saying. When you &#8216;defend&#8217; your prophet by attaching such wondrous claims to him it is you who asks him to be felled.

How weak are you to attack someone that cannot speak for themselves because of absence/death?

How weak is your ideology that, not only will fall under the merest scrutiny, you are upset that it is subjected to such scrutiny? Get over yourself. If you make daft claims you shouldn&#8217;t winge when people call you out on those daft claims.

More to the point &#8211; I&#8217;ve yet to see Muhammad subjected to an unfair attack. Are you pulling the persecution card?

Now watch how quickly you will tell yourself what I just said about you is untrue.

I wish you could play the armchair psychologist. If you did you might realise a few things. For starters you might stop equating character flaws with refusing to swallow bs. Some of the posts you have made on this thread are almost scary in their detachment from reality. Even if I granted the premise that allah existed &#8211; it still wouldn&#8217;t make your posts and less detached from reality. Claims are either true, in and of themselves or because they agree with reality, or false because they disagree with reality. You make claims and those claims aren&#8217;t faring well when they are stood up against reality &#8211; is a character flaw of mine to be anal in recognising that?

Peace be upon you.

May sanity, intellectual honesty and scientific understanding be upon you.

 

[Alla Prima]

Peace be upon you.

May Buddha's words enlighten you.

 

[JMorris]

May Buddha's words enlighten you.

May socks forever warm your feet.