Quran is free of errors

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:gnostic]Our body don't have silicate minerals, which is what the clay is made out of, mainly. The silicate mineral is worn down into fine grains.

If I remember geology lesson correctly, when I was doing a civil engineering course, silicate is made out of most silicon and oxygen atoms (I don't remember how many oxygen atoms). Correct me if i am wrong, because that was over 12 years ago.(End quote)

Response: You are correct. And both silicon and oxygen make up the human body. They may not form together to make silicate minerals, but the elements are still there.

Quote: gnostic
We do have many elements in our body makeup, but silicon atoms only make less 0.006 percentage; that would be roughly 0.002 percent of the silicon mass. That's not even enough to make a single silicate mineral, let alone clay.

The majority of the elements are oxygen, carbon, hydrogen (probably not in that order).

Of course, fatihah, I can guess that you won't admit that being evidence or proof, so look up some biology or anatomy books that contained the chemical element or makeup of human body.[/QUOTE]

Response: Actually, not this time. You are correct. And all of these elements can be found in the human body. The difference is that Allah has made them work independently of one another so our clay like structure or resemblence is no more. But the elements found in clay still exists in us. My advice to you would be the same. If you look up some biology books on what humans are made of you will discover the same.

 

[Fatihah]

@ .lava

That the koran was written in the 7th century and contains an idea commonly believed in the 7th century, namely humans are made from clay, isn’t remarkable. What is remarkable is that because the koran contains this claim there are people who still believe that claim despite the 14 centuries of information discovered since.

It is a joke. And people like Fatihah are a joke who are an embarrassment to Islam. I mentioned this on another forum and I will do so again here – why are there no Muslims telling people like Fatihah that they are portraying Islam as a farce by defending such idiotic claims? I can point to examples on this forum where Christians have chided fellow Christians for such ravenous idiocy – why no examples from Muslims?

Response: Because not everyone shares the same sense as you. Your attempt to cause confliction between muslims won't work. If they felt the same as you, they would have said something. But they haven't. Why? Because they have enough sense not to support the falsehood you try so desperately to portray as the truth. But look how sad and vain you are. You have to try to rally up some support to validate yourself. Actions of a defeated person.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah claiming that the human body cannot freeze solid. It’s like Fatihah has lived in a box and never been outside to experience the natural world. So Fatihah created a fantasy world to live in. One inspired by the koran. A world where men are made from clay and frostbite doesn’t exist.

Response: Statements coming from a man who let's his dog chew on his leg. (Post 947 of page 95)

 

[Shahzad]

@ It is a joke. And people like Fatihah are a joke who are an embarrassment to Islam. I mentioned this on another forum and I will do so again here – why are there no Muslims telling people like Fatihah that they are portraying Islam as a farce by defending such idiotic claims? I can point to examples on this forum where Christians have chided fellow Christians for such ravenous idiocy – why no examples from Muslims?

Muslims, even if they disagree, are not supposed to support non-Muslims against their fellow Muslim. So even though there may be Muslims who disagree with the scientific miracles nonsense they may be reluctant to step in and join in with non-Muslims criticising a Muslim.

 

[.lava]

Muslims, even if they disagree, are not supposed to support non-Muslims against their fellow Muslim. So even though there may be Muslims who disagree with the scientific miracles nonsense they may be reluctant to step in and join in with non-Muslims criticising a Muslim.

that is a lie. please behave yourself and do not slander Muslims.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/81338-jihad-renegotiated-2.html#post1567661



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[themadhair]

that is a lie. please behave yourself and do not slander Muslims.

At this point .lava I’m beginning to wonder if the accusation is true. At least when it comes to unambiguous claims stemming from the koran.

 

[.lava]

At this point .lava I’m beginning to wonder if the accusation is true. At least when it comes to unambiguous claims stemming from the koran.

what's this discussion about, themadhair?


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[themadhair]

what's this discussion about, themadhair?

Well, it started when a chap back in the 7th century wrote this book. This book, due to being written in the 7th century, contained ideas and beliefs that were commonplace in 7th century society, such as humans being made of clay. Today, some 14 centuries later, we have discovered a few things since then such as chemistry, geology, biology and human anatomy which show that humans are not made from clay.

There seems to be a peculiar group of folks who, despite the wealth of discovery over the last 1,400 years and the extensive dissemination of such, seem intent on holding some of those mistaken 7th century ideas to be true. They seem intent on doing due to a fundamentalist attitude towards textual literalism.

Do all Muslims hold such a farcical level of literalism? No, I do not believe so. But it does beg the question, and I believe this is the third time I have re-iterated this to you .lava, is why there are seemingly no Muslims on this forum willing to point out the farcical nature of defending some of the more ridiculous of the koranic claims (such as humans being made of clay)?

As an added question – did you really need me to reiterate the above?

 

[.lava]

let me ask you this way themadhair....what's your claim here? i do not really read each post of yours or Fatihah's. but i sometimes look and i see that you are basicly saying Qur'an is idiotic which i would NEVER defend or agree with. are you seriously expecting me to agree with you there? or what? what is it that you want?


btw, i suggest non-Muslims to offer some respect. this is Qur'anic debate DIR. this is not a special area where you are free to call us morons. i am tired of this kind of behavour. why insulting people here? you disagree, fine! so what? then why do you keep arguing if you are sure we are morons? how many times did you insulted Fatihah personally? you insult him because he believes Qur'an is word of God and he tries to explain himself and how he sees things. so he is therefor a moron? go check out my posts, i would not call ANYONE moron or stupid, i would not treat people as you do. you, as a person do not seek ways to be better and it is fine, your life you path insult as you wish. but don't expect people like me to take your side. that is not going to happen and reason is not another Muslim.


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[.lava]

Well, it started when a chap back in the 7th century wrote this book. This book, due to being written in the 7th century, contained ideas and beliefs that were commonplace in 7th century society, such as humans being made of clay. Today, some 14 centuries later, we have discovered a few things since then such as chemistry, geology, biology and human anatomy which show that humans are not made from clay.

There seems to be a peculiar group of folks who, despite the wealth of discovery over the last 1,400 years and the extensive dissemination of such, seem intent on holding some of those mistaken 7th century ideas to be true. They seem intent on doing due to a fundamentalist attitude towards textual literalism.

Do all Muslims hold such a farcical level of literalism? No, I do not believe so. But it does beg the question, and I believe this is the third time I have re-iterated this to you .lava, is why there are seemingly no Muslims on this forum willing to point out the farcical nature of defending some of the more ridiculous of the koranic claims (such as humans being made of clay)?

As an added question – did you really need me to reiterate the above?

it is you who take some issues literally. you have noone there to teach you Qur'an word by word. you do not speak any Arabic. you have no chance to read original text. once more noone there to translate you personally yet you do not mind come over and discuss as if you speak and understand Arabic enough to read verses and you discuss over them. even though i said the word that's used in that verse means "essence" you do not pay attention. what am i suppose to do?


oh i see....you expect Muslims to stand against Qur'an and call it ridiculous as you do. seriously...dude? if there is a Muslim who denies verses he could not understand, he should reconsider his faith. no Muslim should do that. i personally do not expect myself to understand each verse of Qur'an so if i coincide with a verse i do not understand i think it is not right time for me. maybe i am not at that level yet, because my life has proven to me there are always things that i do not know. beside it is Qur'an that says some verses would not be understood without someone at cretain level to explain them. we have those special people among us. we study Qur'an and verses word by word to understand it correctly. it does not always have a literal meaning. some of them are coded. some words of Aabic do not have paralel word in English and sometime to explain one Arabic word you must make a whole sentence in English. do you even care for this?

so human is made out of clay. of course we are not like vases made of clay. you do not need to be scientist to know that. that is not what Fatihah is saying anyway. yet you make it look like Muslims claim to be not "flesh and bones" but simply clay. then you call us morons. funny! noone has ever said that. yet you keep representing us that way.

Qur'an is word of Allah, it is not limited by time. just like me you are free to believe it or not. i did not believe it without proof. you search for proof in us? well good luck. we are human just like you. but in case you really want to find the truth, then ask it from Allah. there is noone there to help you besides Allah. you do not agree, it is fine too. you disagree with our beliefs....then AGREE TO DISAGREE, it is much wiser than expecting Muslims to deny Qur'an. and you did not know that? you really needed to hear this?


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[themadhair]

let me ask you this way themadhair....what's your claim here?

I laid it out very clearly in my previous post. Thank you for not reading it.

i do not really read each post of yours or Fatihah's.

Maybe you should take the time to do just that. Read the entire thread while you are at it.

but i sometimes look and i see that you are basicly saying Qur'an is idiotic which i would NEVER defend or agree with.

Maybe you should read the entire thread. Do it. Maybe then you might begin to see why myself and others are scratching our heads in utter disbelief.

what is it that you want?

I laid it out in my previous post.

btw, i suggest non-Muslims to offer some respect.

Why? Exactly how far would someone have to go in order to have lost your respect? When I first joined this forum and first interacted with Fatihah I was incredibly restrained. I spent some considerable time and effort ‘debating’ with Fatihah, spending a lot of time to explain things and to search out suitable references as evidence as did others. At this stage I feel that Fatihah has thrown that time and effort back into my face with some of the most farcical postings I have seen on any forum. Fatihah lost my respect. If you feel otherwise then kindly trawl through my interactions with Fatihah and tell me that loss of respect was unjustified.

how many times did you insulted Fatihah personally?

Is it an insult if there is truth to the accusation? Seeing that you have admitted to not having followed mine and Fatihah’s posts, as well as the posts of many other people whom I suspect feel very much the same way I do, how can you claim that my comments were unjustified?

you insult him because he believes Qur'an is word of God and he tries to explain himself and how he sees things. so he is therefor a moron?

You believe the koran to be the word of god – I have not called you a moron. Why is that? Maybe you should read the posts in this thread and find out why I described Fatihah’s behaviour and mindset in the terms I did. And when you have read this thread in its entirety then come back and tell me my description was wrong and why. At this stage it seems to me that you are taking offence to my comments without having bothered to check the basis behind those comments.

you, as a person do not seek ways to be better and it is fine,

The above comment bugs me for two reasons:

Firstly, you know absolutely nothing about me upon which you could base such a slanderous and inaccurate remark. I’m not offended by the comment since I think it says less about me than the person making it.

Secondly, the only reason you even engaged in this discussion is because you share the religion of someone you are defending. And you are defending them without even knowing why that person is being challenged. Read the entire thread.

that is not going to happen and reason is not another Muslim.

At this stage .lava I have seen nothing from you to believe this isn’t the case. I can see no reason why you are even engaged right now, and seemingly taking such offence to my comments, other than I am not Muslim. You cannot accuse me of lacking respect when you yourself lacked the respect to read sufficient posts to see why I am taking my current stance.

 

[themadhair]

so human is made out of clay. of course we are not like vases made of clay. you do not need to be scientist to know that.

Tell that to Fatihah. Stop avoiding the issue by twisting my words and do what it is I’ve asked you to do – tell the above to Fatihah. Read Fatihah’s posts and the posts made to Fatihah. Do it because you are making accusations that do not follow from mine or other posters posts.

 

[.lava]

I laid it out very clearly in my previous post. Thank you for not reading it.
Maybe you should take the time to do just that. Read the entire thread while you are at it.
Maybe you should read the entire thread. Do it. Maybe then you might begin to see why myself and others are scratching our heads in utter disbelief.
I laid it out in my previous post.

there are over a thousand posts up there.

Why? Exactly how far would someone have to go in order to have lost your respect? When I first joined this forum and first interacted with Fatihah I was incredibly restrained. I spent some considerable time and effort ‘debating’ with Fatihah, spending a lot of time to explain things and to search out suitable references as evidence as did others. At this stage I feel that Fatihah has thrown that time and effort back into my face with some of the most farcical postings I have seen on any forum. Fatihah lost my respect. If you feel otherwise then kindly trawl through my interactions with Fatihah and tell me that loss of respect was unjustified.

then solve your problems with Fatihah. if you think it is not possible then agree to disagree.

Is it an insult if there is truth to the accusation? Seeing that you have admitted to not having followed mine and Fatihah’s posts, as well as the posts of many other people whom I suspect feel very much the same way I do, how can you claim that my comments were unjustified?

as i mentioned i said what i culd ever said about this issue. yet you have some expectations from me. like opposing Fatihah. i do not know him. it is his choice to continue or to stop, not mine. i am not his teacher or superior and i do not feel responsible of his acts. we are different individuals. what's there you do not get about this?

You believe the koran to be the word of god – I have not called you a moron. Why is that? Maybe you should read the posts in this thread and find out why I described Fatihah’s behaviour and mindset in the terms I did. And when you have read this thread in its entirety then come back and tell me my description was wrong and why. At this stage it seems to me that you are taking offence to my comments without having bothered to check the basis behind those comments.

then deal with him, why do you want to pull me into this? it is obvious that i am free to join a discussion if i find it attractive as i did many times before.

The above comment bugs me for two reasons:

Firstly, you know absolutely nothing about me upon which you could base such a slanderous and inaccurate remark. I’m not offended by the comment since I think it says less about me than the person making it.

yes, you are right. yet i am not the only one. you do not know anything about me either but for some reason it was OK to accuse me for things. so how are you going to explain it to yourself? i am tired of being accused of things simply depending on my religion, not even the religion just the name of it.

Secondly, the only reason you even engaged in this discussion is because you share the religion of someone you are defending. And you are defending them without even knowing why that person is being challenged. Read the entire thread.

oh wait a minute. it has nothing to do with Fatihah if i came along and said what i think about "clay" issue.

yea i know it really sounds like i defend him. but dear, you are inviting me to give reaction to him. it is obvious if i wanted to, then i would discuss with him as i did with some other Muslims. but this issue does not really attract me. well, you challange anyone you want. i really do not mind. the reason why we got this point is your expectation from me. cos i do not understand why you want me to do things i do not feel like doing.

At this stage .lava I have seen nothing from you to believe this isn’t the case. I can see no reason why you are even engaged right now, and seemingly taking such offence to my comments, other than I am not Muslim. You cannot accuse me of lacking respect when you yourself lacked the respect to read sufficient posts to see why I am taking my current stance.

friend, this is not first time i told you i do not read all the posts on this issue. if i was interested then i would. this is not about respect. imo i can not make more than 3 posts about this issue. because there is nothing to discuss. we agree or we do not, it does not take dozens of pages to talk about this.

well...see? you absolutely know nothing about me yet...


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[.lava]

Tell that to Fatihah. Stop avoiding the issue by twisting my words and do what it is I’ve asked you to do – tell the above to Fatihah. Read Fatihah’s posts and the posts made to Fatihah. Do it because you are making accusations that do not follow from mine or other posters posts.

oh dear God! what's with you? is there anyway we can land on Earth and listen to each other? can we do that themadhair?

here you go, i summarize for you (you correct me if i am wrong)

1-i was checking out threads, i found this one. i saw you guys were discussing. i am not fine with trying to prove verses. so i left.

2-then i noticed you are still arguing. i wondered why you keep arguing.

3-then i came along and made a post without reading your or his comments. because it is not your posts that made me send information about how we perceive that verse.

4-i was not even replied. i thought "fine. they do not care for what i say".

5-i guess i made another post about the issue. i can't recall exactly.

6-things got weird when you gave reaction to me and asked me why i do not say anything about comments of Fatihah. as i recall it i told you i do not read all the posts on the issue. i tried to kindly say it is not my business what he says, it is his personal thing.

long story short, themadhair, i do not understand why you think i should interfer. i do not think it is easy to go back in pages and find comments you referring to. i do not know what to do. do you think i am responsible of what Muslim say here?


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[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:themadhair]

Why? Exactly how far would someone have to go in order to have lost your respect? When I first joined this forum and first interacted with Fatihah I was incredibly restrained. I spent some considerable time and effort ‘debating’ with Fatihah, spending a lot of time to explain things and to search out suitable references as evidence as did others. At this stage I feel that Fatihah has thrown that time and effort back into my face with some of the most farcical postings I have seen on any forum. Fatihah lost my respect. If you feel otherwise then kindly trawl through my interactions with Fatihah and tell me that loss of respect was unjustified.


Is it an insult if there is truth to the accusation? Seeing that you have admitted to not having followed mine and Fatihah’s posts, as well as the posts of many other people whom I suspect feel very much the same way I do, how can you claim that my comments were unjustified?


You believe the koran to be the word of god – I have not called you a moron. Why is that? Maybe you should read the posts in this thread and find out why I described Fatihah’s behaviour and mindset in the terms I did. And when you have read this thread in its entirety then come back and tell me my description was wrong and why. At this stage it seems to me that you are taking offence to my comments without having bothered to check the basis behind those comments.


Tell that to Fatihah. Stop avoiding the issue by twisting my words and do what it is I’ve asked you to do – tell the above to Fatihah. Read Fatihah’s posts and the posts made to Fatihah. Do it because you are making accusations that do not follow from mine or other posters posts.[/QUOTE]

Response: After your attacks of defamation, a whole discussion with a person with the attempt to encourage the person to side with you and take aim at me follows thereafter. My, my, my. How extreme the vain will go to seek validation. How unfortunate. How sad.

 

[McBell]

Response: A whole discussion with a person with the intent to encourage the person to take aim at me. My, my, my. How extreme the vain will go to seek validation. How unfortunate. How sad.

 

[darkendless]

Response: After your attacks of defamation, a whole discussion with a person with the attempt to encourage the person to side with you and take aim at me follows thereafter. My, my, my. How extreme the vain will go to seek validation. How unfortunate. How sad.

Fatihah we've all tried to be reasonable with you, but you seem unable to understand what we're communicating to you. I don't know why that is, but your defiance in the face of common sense is more than frustrating.

If you could demonstrate that you understand what we post, we may have more respect for you. But your blatent ignoring of our evidence is rude and frustrating.

 

[JMorris]

btw, i suggest non-Muslims to offer some respect. this is Qur'anic debate DIR. this is not a special area where you are free to call us morons.

i do find it curious as to why Muslims keep making threads like this, but only putting them in the Quran DIR. there was this one, and others claiming the Quran is full of scientific facts and the such.

it would seem to me, that the only reason to make a thread like this in a DIR, is to keep non-Muslims out of the discussion. then all of you can gather and nod your head and say, "yes, it is a perfect. yes, it is perfect". do not misunderstand me, i am not pointing this accusation at you .lava, but it seems to be this was the intent of the people who create these threads.

if muslims dont want to be ridiculed, dont make threads claiming that everything in the quran is 100% scientifically true and proven. it is obviously not. like i've said a number of times, the entire debate on this thread is over, people are not made of clay, so the quran has atleast 1 error, and thus, not "free of error".

i also find it curious that i dont notice any other religion on this forum doing this. if there were christian threads claiming these silly things, we'd be there debating them too. but they dont make claims like "The Bible is free of error", now do they? i wonder why that is.

so why are muslim so afraid of having non-muslims coming into their threads and pointing out the obvious?

 

[themadhair]

but they dont make claims like "The Bible is free of error", now do they?

Some do, but other Christians often criticise it though.

 

[JMorris]

Some do, but other Christians often criticise it though.

ive seen it in real life, and on tv and stuff, but i havent seen any threads on this forum making these claims. but maybe i missed them