Quran is free of errors

[Alla Prima]

[QUOTE:Alla Prima]My take on that is if he starts to seriously doubt or question the teachings of Islam, the entire religion will fold like a house of cards. Any ideology that forbids criticism of itself is faulty at root otherwise it wouldn't forbid criticism.

Response: Any ideology that forbids criticism of itself is an ideology not worth acknowledging. However, that is not the case in islam. Allah wants us to challenge the qur'an and examine it to see if it's true and not follow it blindly. And once you are open minded and sincere enough to approach the qur'an with the same attitude, you will learn that the qur'an is indeed free from error as well. Insha'Allah.

I rest my case.

edit: Let me reiterate that I fail to see any value in discussing Islam with someone who holds this position. One may as well be talking to a wind-up doll which has pre-programed messages. All one could hope to get is propaganda.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:darkendless]You just proved exactly what i was saying. You're so caught up in the Quran that your ability to reason with yourself is severely lacking. We can prove we're not made of clay because nothing within our body acts as clay, or as a clay composite. (End quote)

Response: And you just proved exactly what I was saying. You are so caught up in your own beliefs that when the evidence is provided you can't acknowledge it. Here you are once again with the claim that you have proven that man is not created from clay when you haven't provided a single piece of evidence of proof to your claim. You simply saying you've provided proof does not mean that you've actually done so. Saying it is not proving it.

Quote: darkendless
I would like you to, if you can, to prove to me, through evidence (so that means without the Quran), that we are made of clay. I've proven using materials science we're not made of clay. Gnostic and other have proven through biology we're not made of clay. All you've done is reject it. The Quran is evidence only for the fool. Why? Because it has no credibility. (End quote)

Response: There's the statement. Now all we need is the proof.

Quote: darkendless
If Allah proved it to you how come you cannot prove it to me?(End quote)

Response: Proof can not be seen through the eyes of denial.

 

[darkendless]

Response: And you just proved exactly what I was saying. You are so caught up in your own beliefs that when the evidence is provided you can't acknowledge it. Here you are once again with the claim that you have proven that man is not created from clay when you haven't provided a single piece of evidence of proof to your claim. You simply saying you've provided proof does not mean that you've actually done so. Saying it is not proving it.


Response: There's the statement. Now all we need is the proof.


Response: Proof can not be seen through the eyes of denial.

So what you're saying there is you can't prove it? I thought so, thanks.

I don't have beliefs Fatihah. I don't believe in anything i cannot see, or cannot prove to another person. So stop with the beliefs garbage will you.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:darkendless]

I don't have beliefs Fatihah. I don't believe in anything i cannot see, or cannot prove to another person. So stop with the beliefs garbage will you.[/QUOTE]

Response: Which sums up your problem quite clearly.

 

[darkendless]

[QUOTE:darkendless]

I don't have beliefs Fatihah. I don't believe in anything i cannot see, or cannot prove to another person. So stop with the beliefs garbage will you.

Response: Which sums up your problem quite clearly.[/quote]

Beliefs are for people who are so insecure that they need something to believe in to make themselves feel better.

Having "beliefs" does not hold weight in an argument over facts.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: Which sums up your problem quite clearly.

Beliefs are for people who are so insecure that they need something to believe in to make themselves feel better.

Having "beliefs" does not hold weight in an argument over facts.

Agreed. Fatihah has blind faith. He's saying that one cannot see the proof until one has blind faith. One has to close their minds to logic and reason and science. If you believe it's true then it's true. Shocking isn't it?

 

[Fatihah]

Agreed. Fatihah has blind faith. He's saying that one cannot see the proof until one has blind faith. One has to close their minds to logic and reason and science. If you believe it's true then it's true. Shocking isn't it?

Response: Only if your words were true.

 

[McBell]

Response: Only if your words were true.

Two way street.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Put some time aside and then do so. It will also help to enlighten to why myself, and others, are shaking our heads in disbelief of this whole episode.


And you seem intent on not realising that the cultural context of when the koran was written is what lead to the claim of humans coming from clay.


Meteorites have contained organic materials far closer to human composition than clay. Underwater thermal vents eject materials that combine to form similar.

Sorry for the late response. I tried looking through first 10-20 pages but got lost in different arguments. Sadly, I didn't find those arguments there.
Whatever the cultural context maybe, there is no denying that human body shares many elements with clay.
Now I, for sake of argument, accept that meteorites contain elements like human body does. The underground vent thing contains them too. Now the problem is, that there are in fact very few things in this world that share so many elements with human body. As you pointed out in another thread, 2-3 elements may even be shared by the tyre of a monster truck. Why then, only clay out of an infinite number of items mentioned. And that too incidentally contains almost all of the elements in human body (if not all).

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

You just proved exactly what i was saying. You're so caught up in the Quran that your ability to reason with yourself is severely lacking. We can prove we're not made of clay because nothing within our body acts as clay, or as a clay composite.

I would like you to, if you can, to prove to me, through evidence (so that means without the Quran), that we are made of clay. I've proven using materials science we're not made of clay. Gnostic and other have proven through biology we're not made of clay. All you've done is reject it. The Quran is evidence only for the fool. Why? Because it has no credibility.

If Allah proved it to you how come you cannot prove it to me?

Hey can you please tell the number of your post, containing the material science stuff. Thanks.

 

[darkendless]

Sorry for the late response. I tried looking through first 10-20 pages but got lost in different arguments. Sadly, I didn't find those arguments there.
Whatever the cultural context maybe, there is no denying that human body shares many elements with clay.
Now I, for sake of argument, accept that meteorites contain elements like human body does. The underground vent thing contains them too. Now the problem is, that there are in fact very few things in this world that share so many elements with human body. As you pointed out in another thread, 2-3 elements may even be shared by the tyre of a monster truck. Why then, only clay out of an infinite number of items mentioned. And that too incidentally contains almost all of the elements in human body (if not all).

As i've said before, many, many times, clay cannot compose our bodies because clay itself, and clay composites (clay + another element) does not share the same mechanical properties as we have.

Secondly, clay is formed through the breakdown of rocks. If we were composed of clay our movement would be severely reduced.

We share elements with clay because they are elements found in almost everything. Oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon.... etc

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

As i've said before, many, many times, clay cannot compose our bodies because clay itself, and clay composites (clay + another element) does not share the same mechanical properties as we have.

Secondly, clay is formed through the breakdown of rocks. If we were composed of clay our movement would be severely reduced.

We share elements with clay because they are elements found in almost everything. Oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon.... etc

Humans are made from an extract of clay as given in another verse. Quite a difference. Anyways, can you give me the post number of that concerns material science portion.

 

[darkendless]

Humans are made from an extract of clay as given in another verse. Quite a difference. Anyways, can you give me the post number of that concerns material science portion.

So you're saying that we're made of a composite?

Do i need to remind you that chemical and physical properties of composites do not change from the original?

Clay does not have the elasticity to be able to withstand the pressure we put on our bodies, nor the liquid we take in. Its just not reasonable to infer that we;re made of clay, simple as that.

Try pages 85-90

 

[themadhair]

Now the problem is, that there are in fact very few things in this world that share so many elements with human body.

If you have reduced your arguments to elements then what you say about being few sources is blatantly false. Clay is made from rocks so rocks have those same elements. Do you know how much rocks there are on this planet that contain the elements in organic matter?

As you pointed out in another thread, 2-3 elements may even be shared by the tyre of a monster truck.

Actually it is a lot more. I used those two elements as an example to illustrate Fatihah’s idiocy.

Why then, only clay out of an infinite number of items mentioned.

See above. When you reduce it to elements the argument becomes completely meaningless. Why are you trying to rationalise this crap? Seriously, why?

 

[darkendless]

See above. When you reduce it to elements the argument becomes completely meaningless. Why are you trying to rationalise this crap? Seriously, why?

Resistance to Allah in unacceptable.

Rationalisation and common sense escapes.

This thread is a ********** joke, i can't believe i have to exaplin this stuff to adults/.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

If you have reduced your arguments to elements then what you say about being few sources is blatantly false. Clay is made from rocks so rocks have those same elements. Do you know how much rocks there are on this planet that contain the elements in organic matter?


Actually it is a lot more. I used those two elements as an example to illustrate Fatihah’s idiocy.


See above. When you reduce it to elements the argument becomes completely meaningless. Why are you trying to rationalise this crap? Seriously, why?

What is the argument exactly? I was under the impression that the argument is that this statement is scientifically incorrect rather than that this is a scientific miracle or not.....

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

So you're saying that we're made of a composite?

Do i need to remind you that chemical and physical properties of composites do not change from the original?

Clay does not have the elasticity to be able to withstand the pressure we put on our bodies, nor the liquid we take in. Its just not reasonable to infer that we;re made of clay, simple as that.

Try pages 85-90

Is it not possible that the various compounds within clay, be separated and chemically reacted to form different compounds?

 

[darkendless]

Is it not possible that the various compounds within clay, be separated and chemically reacted to form different compounds?

It is impossble. Compounds and elements that make them up retain their integrity.

Carbon from clay is different to carbon inside humans, as with every other element. They function differently because they retain integrity.

 

[themadhair]

What is the argument exactly? I was under the impression that the argument is that this statement is scientifically incorrect rather than that this is a scientific miracle or not.....

Read the thread.

 

[themadhair]

Carbon from clay is different to carbon inside humans, as with every other element. They function differently because they retain integrity.

To clarify what he means – he is referring to carbon based compounds rather than the element itself.