Quran is free of errors

[MFaraz_Hayat]

It is impossble. Compounds and elements that make them up retain their integrity.

Carbon from clay is different to carbon inside humans, as with every other element. They function differently because they retain integrity.

So basically what you are stating is that we cannot decompose alumino-silicates and the likes?

 

[darkendless]

So basically what you are stating is that we cannot decompose alumino-silicates and the likes?

We can, but we need chemicals to do so. I fail to see how this is constructive to the debate. Are you going to tell me that Allah broke down clay, and then rebuilt us?

If so don't bother, thats more rediculous than the notion that we're made of clay in the first place.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

We can, but we need chemicals to do so. I fail to see how this is constructive to the debate. Are you going to tell me that Allah broke down clay, and then rebuilt us?

If so don't bother, thats more rediculous than the notion that we're made of clay in the first place.

First of all, what is the definition of God? Well, God is defined as an All-Powerful being. He has power over all things. So basically, it is quite possible for Him to create humans from clay. Not being able to do so actually restricts his power, which goes against the very definition.
And can you please explain why is the notion ridiculous? Like I said, I am against the notion that the statement is scientifically impossible. You claim the opposite. God has limitless energy. Surely he can decompose any compound in clay and 'reconstruct' humans from it.

 

[darkendless]

First of all, what is the definition of God? Well, God is defined as an All-Powerful being. He has power over all things. So basically, it is quite possible for Him to create humans from clay. Not being able to do so actually restricts his power, which goes against the very definition.
And can you please explain why is the notion ridiculous? Like I said, I am against the notion that the statement is scientifically impossible. You claim the opposite. God has limitless energy. Surely he can decompose any compound in clay and 'reconstruct' humans from it.

Because i believe in things that can be seen and demonstrated. You're being rediculous by claiming God would simply go against common science, just because he can. Well of course he would, but you havn't got a chance of demonstrating that you're correct, thus your position weak.

My problem with your position is that you're forced to make bold claims that go against conventions in order to fulfil your agenda. But what chance do you have of proving it to me? Your position is automatically weak because it does not fit withbin the bounds of conventional scientific practice, or common sense for that matter.

 

[themadhair]

And now we find out why koranic science isn’t.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Because i believe in things that can be seen and demonstrated. You're being rediculous by claiming God would simply go against common science, just because he can. Well of course he would, but you havn't got a chance of demonstrating that you're correct, thus your position weak.

My problem with your position is that you're forced to make bold claims that go against conventions in order to fulfil your agenda. But what chance do you have of proving it to me? Your position is automatically weak because it does not fit withbin the bounds of conventional scientific practice, or common sense for that matter.

So are you implying that it is scientifically impossible to decompose individual compounds in clay?

 

[darkendless]

So are you implying that it is scientifically impossible to decompose individual compounds in clay?

Im saying it doesn't occur naturally too well. Clay never completely breaks down by itself within reason. It takes thousands of years because clay itself is so versatile.

It takes chemicals and lots of them to break clay down. It takes even more to break it down into individual elements.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Im saying it doesn't occur naturally too well. Clay never completely breaks down by itself within reason. It takes thousands of years because clay itself is so versatile.

It takes chemicals and lots of them to break clay down. It takes even more to break it down into individual elements.

So ultimately, I am not bending any rules of science. It is possible scientifically. Considering that God can provide it with immense amount of energy, the process may take very short duration (again scientific).

 

[darkendless]

So ultimately, I am not bending any rules of science. It is possible scientifically. Considering that God can provide it with immense amount of energy, the process may take very short duration (again scientific).

If you break it down into individual elements and break every compound and every molecule, it is no longer clay but derivatives of clay, so essentially your reasoning fails scientifically.

I know before i said the particles will retain the integrity of clay, which they do. However, they will not function as clay, nor have any similarities to clay. In saying that, if they were to be rebuilt somehow (you can't really do it and have them function as clay again), they would act diffrerntly.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

If you break it down into individual elements and break every compound and every molecule, it is no longer clay but derivatives of clay, so essentially your reasoning fails scientifically.

I know before i said the particles will retain the integrity of clay, which they do. However, they will not function as clay, nor have any similarities to clay. In saying that, if they were to be rebuilt somehow (you can't really do it and have them function as clay again), they would act diffrerntly.

So basically, if we assume that God exists then this verse can scientifically be correct ?

 

[darkendless]

So basically, if we assume that God exists then this verse can scientifically be correct ?

A naive assumption yes. I guess you need that in order to violate science.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

A naive assumption yes. I guess you need that in order to violate science.

Depends on whether one is an atheist or not. Anyways, so this is not an error as it was previously called, unless of course you are questioning the existence of God. For it is scientifically possible for God to create humans from extract of clay, via scientific means.
Anyways, whats you're opinion on origin of life. (just curious)
PS: I am not an adult, legally. I am 17 years old.

 

[darkendless]

Depends on whether one is an atheist or not. Anyways, so this is not an error as it was previously called, unless of course you are questioning the existence of God. For it is scientifically possible for God to create humans from extract of clay, via scientific means.
Anyways, whats you're opinion on origin of life. (just curious)
PS: I am not an adult, legally. I am 17 years old.

I'm only 19, we're both definately old enough to show some critical analysis skills

What i'm saying is until you can provide something i can see as evidence, its faulty reasoning. You can't claim to be right just because you "believe" God can do special things and violate science.

If, and only if, you believe god can do what he wants can your arguement hold weight. However, in terms of proof (meaning demonstrate it to another person), the God arguement is severely lacking because your chances of being able to explain such a thing to me are slim.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

I'm only 19, we're both definately old enough to show some critical analysis skills

What i'm saying is until you can provide something i can see as evidence, its faulty reasoning. You can't claim to be right just because you "believe" God can do special things and violate science.

If, and only if, you believe god can do what he wants can your arguement hold weight. However, in terms of proof (meaning demonstrate it to another person), the God arguement is severely lacking because your chances of being able to explain such a thing to me are slim.

Its not a special thing actually. If you have a large enough source of energy, even you can decompose the compounds in sand. Further, the elements present in human body are not in element form. They are also compounds (except for few like oxygen). So we don't need to decompose sand to individual elements. We can decompose complex compounds into simpler ones. Also, the Quran does not state that humans are made from extract of clay alone. Rather from water and other stuff too. So we cannot technically say that the verse is scientifically incorrect, for provided we have sufficient energy we can decompose compounds to the same level.
What about the origin of life? Ur opinion on it?

 

[gnostic]

Sorry for the late response. I tried looking through first 10-20 pages but got lost in different arguments. Sadly, I didn't find those arguments there.
Whatever the cultural context maybe, there is no denying that human body shares many elements with clay.

What you seem to not understand (as well as Fatihah) is that having the same elements in a human body and in clay, don't mean that there are clay in our body. The elements don't combine (atomically) to form clay molecule.

Clay have specific molecule that form clay: SiO4. Which one silicon and 4 oxygen atoms, combined together in such a way, that we have clay.

And this is part where you and Fatihah don't understand biology, chemistry and geology. The same molecules (SiO4) are not found in the human body. The elements or atoms are there, but they in no way form clay.

To understand this molecule, which all you Muslims don't seem to grasp. Take a look at water molecules, as example. The water molecule is H2O (2 hydrogen and one oxygen atoms). It has 3 physical states: frozen state (ice), liquid (water) and evaporation of water. In no way do the H2O lose that properties or more importantly the molecular structure, in each of those 3 states.

If clay exist in the human body, then it would not lose structure of the clay molecules.

Don't think in just simple "elements". Think in molecule and compound.

The sun has every single elements, including the oxygen and sodium. Are you going to ignorantly tell me that the sun has clay?

The majority of the elements in the sun is hydrogen, followed by helium. Since there are hydrogen and oxygen, are you going to tell me there water in the sun or that the sun is made out of water?

This is what Fatihah doesn't understand, and apparently you as well. You both have no understanding of chemical properties of clay or the human body, and you both certainly don't have any understanding of molecules.

The Qur'an saying that first humans were made out of clay is clearly in error, because silicon does not have organic properties; the essential elements inside a human properties is carbon, followed by oxygen and hydrogen.

And here is an important thing to remember. Elements mean one thing, but molecules mean something else. Molecule is made out of elements of two or more different atoms. And the clay is a molecule, not an element.

There's no clay molecule in human body.

All you and fatihah are doing is showing how ignorant you really are about science, especially in human anatomy/geology/biochemistry.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

What you seem to not understand (as well as Fatihah) is that having the same elements in a human body and in clay, don't mean that there are clay in our body. The elements don't combine (atomically) to form clay molecule.

Clay have specific molecule that form clay: SiO4. Which one silicon and 4 oxygen atoms, combined together in such a way, that we have clay.

And this is part where you and Fatihah don't understand biology, chemistry and geology. The same molecules (SiO4) are not found in the human body. The elements or atoms are there, but they in no way form clay.

To understand this molecule, which all you Muslims don't seem to grasp. Take a look at water molecules, as example. The water molecule is H2O (2 hydrogen and one oxygen atoms). It has 3 physical states: frozen state (ice), liquid (water) and evaporation of water. In no way do the H2O lose that properties or more importantly the molecular structure, in each of those 3 states.

If clay exist in the human body, then it would not lose structure of the clay molecules.

Don't think in just simple "elements". Think in molecule and compound.

The sun has every single elements, including the oxygen and sodium. Are you going to ignorantly tell me that the sun has clay?

The majority of the elements in the sun is hydrogen, followed by helium. Since there are hydrogen and oxygen, are you going to tell me there water in the sun or that the sun is made out of water?

This is what Fatihah doesn't understand, and apparently you as well. You both have no understanding of chemical properties of clay or the human body, and you both certainly don't have any understanding of molecules.

The Qur'an saying that first humans were made out of clay is clearly in error, because silicon does not have organic properties; the essential elements inside a human properties is carbon, followed by oxygen and hydrogen.

All you and fatihah are doing is showing how ignorant you really are about science, especially in human anatomy/geology/biochemistry.

Just read the previous replies to darkendless please.

 

[gnostic]

Just read the previous replies to darkendless please.

But you don't understand how the molecules are different from simple elements.

So no. Your reply and explanation don't go near enough to explain the errors in the Qur'an and in your interpretation. Your explanation completely ignored carbon, which is essential in organic life. Silicon is not essential to life.

I suggest you read my reply, then make your own reply based on my perspective.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

What you seem to not understand (as well as Fatihah) is that having the same elements in a human body and in clay, don't mean that there are clay in our body. The elements don't combine (atomically) to form clay molecule.

Clay have specific molecule that form clay: SiO4. Which one silicon and 4 oxygen atoms, combined together in such a way, that we have clay.

And this is part where you and Fatihah don't understand biology, chemistry and geology. The same molecules (SiO4) are not found in the human body. The elements or atoms are there, but they in no way form clay.

To understand this molecule, which all you Muslims don't seem to grasp. Take a look at water molecules, as example. The water molecule is H2O (2 hydrogen and one oxygen atoms). It has 3 physical states: frozen state (ice), liquid (water) and evaporation of water. In no way do the H2O lose that properties or more importantly the molecular structure, in each of those 3 states.

If clay exist in the human body, then it would not lose structure of the clay molecules.

Don't think in just simple "elements". Think in molecule and compound.

The sun has every single elements, including the oxygen and sodium. Are you going to ignorantly tell me that the sun has clay?

The majority of the elements in the sun is hydrogen, followed by helium. Since there are hydrogen and oxygen, are you going to tell me there water in the sun or that the sun is made out of water?

This is what Fatihah doesn't understand, and apparently you as well. You both have no understanding of chemical properties of clay or the human body, and you both certainly don't have any understanding of molecules.

The Qur'an saying that first humans were made out of clay is clearly in error, because silicon does not have organic properties; the essential elements inside a human properties is carbon, followed by oxygen and hydrogen.

And here is an important thing to remember. Elements mean one thing, but molecules mean something else. Molecule is made out of elements of two or more different atoms. And the clay is a molecule, not an element.

There's no clay molecule in human body.

All you and fatihah are doing is showing how ignorant you really are about science, especially in human anatomy/geology/biochemistry.

First of all, the Quran clarifies that humans are made from an extract of clay. So this basically negates your argument that silicon must be present.
What is clay?
Clay is a naturally occurring material composed primarily of fine-grained minerals, which show plasticity through a variable range of water content, and which can be hardened when dried and/or fired. Clay deposits are mostly composed of clay minerals (phyllosilicate minerals). (WIKIPEDIA).
This basically shows that your concept of clay is not entirely correct.
Anyways, have you read the replies to darkendless? I mean, they pretty much sum up what I am saying.....and how this is correct scientifically.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:themadhair]

Actually it is a lot more. I used those two elements as an example to illustrate Fatihah’s idiocy.(End quote)

Response: And yet you try to present arguments like the following:

Quote: themadhair
I’m going to answer it in a biology context – the first human came from non-human ancestors.(End quote) (Post 1030 of page 103)

Anyone ever known a child who's parents were not human? Anyone? (Well, besides themadhair's). Yes, we can clearly see where the idiocy lies.

Quote: themadhair
When you reduce it to elements the argument becomes completely meaningless. Why are you trying to rationalise this crap? Seriously, why?(End quote)

Response: We should be asking you the same for your logic.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

But you don't understand how the molecules are different from simple elements.

So no. Your reply and explanation don't go near enough to explain the errors in the Qur'an and in your interpretation. Your explanation completely ignored carbon, which is essential in organic life. Silicon is not essential to life.

I suggest you read my reply, then make your own reply based on my perspective.

Like I said in other posts, it is not necessary for silicon to be present if humans are made using extract of clay. Further, clay is not the only 'ingredient' for the 'human recipe'.