Quran Vs Bible in light of science

[Islam432]

I was talking about this:

He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ...
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... (67:3,5)

According to you the lowest heaven is the troposphere. Are there stars in the troposphere?

you picking half verse of quran then quoting me...dosent makes sence...i already gave the full reply

 

[Islam432]

No he didn't.

He said the observation of miscarriages and births would provide the simplistic descriptions given in the Quran.

And the ancient Indians had a passing knowledge of embryonic development, including th concept that different features formed at different times.

What is in the Quran is no more revelatory than the writings of the indians, greeks and jews from centuries before.

plz post the website bcz i coudnt find anything after goggling it

 

[Islam432]

No. This is not what science has found, its complete garbage. Only a percentage of heavy elements sank to the core, a percentage remained in the crust and the mantle.

Volcanic material does not come from the core.

again , plz give me the source

Now you are just making things up. The Quran is talking about nickel-iron meteorites, a phenomenon long known and long exploited by ancient peoples.

again your home-made theories

A "fall" means the meteorite was witnessed by someone as it fell from the sky. A "find" means the meteorite was not witnessed and the meteorite was found after the fact. About 33% of the meteorites are witnessed falls. The following table is from a book by Vagn F. Buchwald. Included are all known meteorites (4660 in all, weighing a total of 494625 kg) in the period
1740-1990 (excluding meteorites found in Antarctica).

Source: Meteorites, Meteorites and Impacts

 

[DeitySlayer]

you picking half verse of quran then quoting me...dosent makes sence...i already gave the full reply

You replied to something completely different. Explain the verse I quoted.

 

[DeitySlayer]

again , plz give me the source

again your home-made theories

A "fall" means the meteorite was witnessed by someone as it fell from the sky. A "find" means the meteorite was not witnessed and the meteorite was found after the fact. About 33% of the meteorites are witnessed falls. The following table is from a book by Vagn F. Buchwald. Included are all known meteorites (4660 in all, weighing a total of 494625 kg) in the period
1740-1990 (excluding meteorites found in Antarctica).

Source: Meteorites, Meteorites and Impacts

The Egyptian heiroglyphs for iron are 'baa en pet'; meaning 'metal from (the) sky'.

This heavily implies knowledge that the iron-nickel meteorites they were finding fell from space into the Earth's atmosphere.

 

[DeitySlayer]

again , plz give me the source

Well, I have a better idea. How about you show us the source which says volcanic material does come from the core? Volcanic material comes from the mantle.

HowStuffWorks "Magma and Plate Tectonics"

 

[AxisMundi]

and you showed your intelligent conversation , when you said the concepts of embryology was known 1400 years , how do we know , your not just a crazy old man making crazy claims about islam

How do we know?

Ancient Greek physicians, and others, who left written records.

 

[YmirGF]

This is a good question , you yourself said Arabic is very complicated one words has many meanings , and you said why doesn't God stated things in simple matter??

I did? Where?

You see if a layman/uneducated will read Quran , he will see the same verse in another way , and the same verse if an educated man reads Quran he will clearly see the scientific part mentioned in Quran...this is the beauty of Quran

Are you seriously suggesting that Muhammad Asad, Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, Muhammad Habib Shakir, Abdullah Yusuf Ali and many, many others are uneducated laymen? I rather expect that any one of them had a FAR GREATER understanding of Islam and the Qur'an than you have shown.

And why didnt Allah said in clear and straight and clear manner? i have replied to this before

Um, that's nice, but I didn't ask.

The reason why Allah Almighty might not have said it as clear and straight forward is because it would've been impossible for people back then to have accepted Islam if the Noble Quran contained "crazy" claims in it. So, while Noble Verse 27:88 did not sound crazy to Muslims 1500 years ago, it is most definitely an accurate Scientific Statement to us today.

*sigh* It only sounds sort of reasonable to people who are relatively ignorant of both individual fields of science and the scientific method. You seem to fall into both group quite well.

Allah Almighty purposely made the Noble Quran for all times and all places. And He purposely DID NOT make every Noble Verse be possible for interpretation 1500 years ago. Let's look at an example:

Well, your invisible friend did not make the Qur'an for me. Trust me, on this one. Due to that simple fact it is obviously not "for all times and all places".

"Over it are Nineteen. And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, 'What symbol doth God intend by this?' Thus doth God leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind. (The Noble Quran, 74:30-31)"

So, while the number 19 was impossible to interpret 1500 years ago in Noble Verses 74:30-31, but by the Will of Allah Almighty, it became clear to us today. The number 19 was proven to be a fundamental and very important number in the Computer technology today, and adding to that, the Noble Quran's numerical codes are all based on the number 19, which only the computer machine was able to calculate and figure out!

I should have anticipated this drivel about 19. *sigh*

Now... did you want to actually comment on the points raised in my post or are you simply going to play mental gymnastics for us with irrelevant drivel.

 

[tumbleweed41]

This thread, like others recently, started out as "Qu'ran vs Bible, concerning science.
Seems that lately, many have attempted to qualify their own beliefs by making comparisons to other reveled revelations.
The funny thing is, they end up hurting their own statements of faith with outlandish claims, circular reasoning and falling prey to the Forer effect.

Remember, repair the crumbling walls of your own house before criticizing the foundations of others.

 

[David M]

plz post the website bcz i coudnt find anything after goggling it

Try googling for pre-islamic embryology, aristotle or galen.

 

[gnostic]

1. Nowhere does Allah say here that he made Earth first and then he made heaven. He merely says that he made all that is on earth and then he turned to heaven that was already created. If Allah had really created heaven AFTER he created the earth then why would he say “Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven”? After the creation of earth, how can he “Istawa (rise over) towards the heaven” when he hasn’t created it yet in the first place. The only possible explanation for this is that Heaven and Earth were already created.
Does this verse say Allah created the Earth? No! This verse talks only about the “things on earth” and not earth itself!
2. This verse doesn’t even refer to the creation of the earth. Does Allah say that he created earth in this verse? Read again. This verse only says that Allah created “all that is on earth”. Meaning, Earth was ALREADY CREATED by Allah and in this verse Allah is talking only about the THINGS PRESENT ON EARTH AND NOT EARTH ITSELF. So your allegation that the Quran says that God created Earth first and then Heaven is totally false and does not hold any ground because this verse doesn’t talk about Allah creating the Earth at all!
This verse speaks only about the division of heaven and not about its creation

What in the fricking hell are you talking about, islam432??????????

You quoted my post (post #166), but you're putting bl#@dy words in my mouth!

Excluding my quotes from the Qur'an's verses: No where (in post 166) did I mention creation of earth or the creation of heaven!!!!

I did quote in the Qur'an, which mention creation, but that's in the Qur'an verse 61:3. These are not my words when I am quoting the verses from the Qur'an.

Can you distinguish what I write for myself, and what I've quoted?

My post was in regard to your earlier post (128) ABOUT ATMOSPHERE!

In POST 166 I had quoted the Qur'an mentioning creation, but my post is not about creation of heaven, but about the 7 heavens. I don't know what you are reading, but you are certainly not reading post 166, which you have quoted from your scripture.

This is what I had posted in 166 in full:

From an other post, I wrote this:
I don't remember the verse, but I recall that Qur'an the sun, moon and stars were in one of Earth's lower layer of atmosphere. Exactly, which layers that celestial bodies reside in, I don't remember; all I remember is that it was lower layer.

Ah!!! I found the quote.

Then I quoted several verses (67:3-5 and 41:12) FROM THE QUR'AN:

Originally Posted by Qur'an 67:3-5
Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent God; then look again, can you see any disorder?
Then turn back the eye again and again; your look shall '~ come back to you confused while it is fatigued.
And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps.

Originally Posted by Qur'an 41:12
So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.


The rest of quote are my own words:

If the 7 layers of heaven referred to the "7 layers of atmosphere", then why would the lower atmosphere have stars. This is clearly flawed.

If Allah is all-knowing when he supposedly wrote the Qur'an, then he should know the stars were not in any Earth's atmosphere, let alone at the lowest layer. The Sun and Moon is also not in the Earth's atmosphere.

As early as Aristarchus of Samos, whom I have already mention in my last post, Aristarchus believed that the stars were further away than the sun, moon and 5 known planets (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn; Uranus wasn't discovered until the late 18th century) at that time.

The verses demonstrate again, that the Qur'an is scientifically and astronomically incorrect.

No where in the above did I write about the creation of heaven or earth, excluding the quotes from the Qur'an.

It is you who should re-read my post, and realise that I didn't mention creation anywhere in post 166.

What I wrote about 7 heavens is regard to your post about atmospheres, how you associated these heavens with the 7 firmaments and the 7 layers of atmosphere in post #128.

Do you remember your post back in 128?

If you don't this is what you wrote:

2)Atmosphere

"It is He who hath created for you all things that are on earth; moreover His design comprehended the heavens for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; (sab'a sama_wa_t(in)) and of all things he hath perfect knowledge"

Surah Al-Baqara Surah 2 Ayah 29​

Two words are used for heaven or sky in the Quran: "asma" and "taraiq". One can be translated as firmament (asma) and the other one as heaven (taraiq). Both have a distinguished scientific meaning and implication. The meaning of heaven (taraiq) will be dealt with in Astronomy 2, the meaning of firmament (asama) is being dealt in this chapter.
The seven firmaments are the seven layers of the Earth's atmosphere. According to modern geological definition these are defined as the following: Troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere, exosphere, ionosphere and magnetosphere

You had compared 7 heavens with these (incorrect) layers of atmospheres:

1. troposphere
2. stratosphere
3. mesosphere
4. thermosphere
5. exosphere
6. ionosphere
7. magnetosphere

If you believe these are the atmosphere, then if you read my 3 quotes, then hopefully you will understand what I am writing:

Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent God; then look again, can you see any disorder?

And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps.

The seven heavens are supposedly your 7 layers of atmospheres. The lamps supposedly referred to the stars.

Are you with me so far?

The next verse (41:12) show the connection between 41:12 (which mentioned stars) and 67:3-5 (which mentioned lamps).

So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Verse 67:5 say that Allah adorn the lower heaven with lamps, while verse 41:12 says that he adorn the lower heaven with stars. The connection between the two quotes is clear: Allah put stars in your lower layer of atmosphere or firmament.

According to you the lower heaven is the troposphere. So my question to you is this:

My point in my post 166 is that the troposphere doesn't have stars.

Are there "stars" in the troposphere?
​

So your Qur'an as well as your interpretations of the Qur'an are seriously flawed, and scientifically incorrect.

 

[AxisMundi]

Intellectual dishonesty and bankruptcy.

The bread and butter of the scriptural Apologist.

 

[gnostic]

i said

"Allah doesn’t talk about creation of heaven or earth in this verse at all. He merely talks about creation of the things present on/in Earth when he says"

"This verse may mean that Allah made all things on earth and THEN divided the heaven into seven parts; still it is absolutely 100 % correct. This is because the atmosphere around the earth was formed AFTER earth was created."

I was talking about this:

He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ...
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... (67:3,5)

According to you the lowest heaven is the troposphere. Are there stars in the troposphere?

you picking half verse of quran then quoting me...dosent makes sence...i already gave the full reply

DeitySlayer has asked a valid questions.

And they are the same questions I am asking you.

I gave you two quotes: 67:3,5 and 41:12.

So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

It (41:12) state that he put "brilliant stars" in the lower heaven, which is similar to putting lamps in the lower heaven verse 67:5. According to your the troposphere is one of the lower layers of the atmosphere (the lowest, in fact).

So I will repeat my question that I have asked in post 231:

Are there "stars" in the troposphere?
​

 

[gnostic]

Intellectual dishonesty and bankruptcy.

The bread and butter of the scriptural Apologist.

You got that right.

 

[darkendless]

You mean to say the geology part , yeah copying things from site which has explained things with good interpretation and logic is not a problem , also iam only 1-2 hours per day , difficult to write all stuff in small time though iam planning on next summer to write a book on 'quran and modern science' with massive details

No i mean everything you are posting. Why do you think people will bother smashing your arguements when they're not even your own?

Now we've seen your mountains arguement before and Painted Wolf has already shown it to be false, what do you say to that? DO you have evidence to counter it?

 

[Islam432]

What in the fricking hell are you talking about, islam432??????????

You quoted my post (post #166), but you're putting bl#@dy words in my mouth!

Excluding my quotes from the Qur'an's verses: No where (in post 166) did I mention creation of earth or the creation of heaven!!!!

I did quote in the Qur'an, which mention creation, but that's in the Qur'an verse 61:3. These are not my words when I am quoting the verses from the Qur'an.

Can you distinguish what I write for myself, and what I've quoted?

My post was in regard to your earlier post (128) ABOUT ATMOSPHERE!

In POST 166 I had quoted the Qur'an mentioning creation, but my post is not about creation of heaven, but about the 7 heavens. I don't know what you are reading, but you are certainly not reading post 166, which you have quoted from your scripture.

This is what I had posted in 166 in full:



No where in the above did I write about the creation of heaven or earth, excluding the quotes from the Qur'an.

It is you who should re-read my post, and realise that I didn't mention creation anywhere in post 166.

What I wrote about 7 heavens is regard to your post about atmospheres, how you associated these heavens with the 7 firmaments and the 7 layers of atmosphere in post #128.

Do you remember your post back in 128?

If you don't this is what you wrote:



You had compared 7 heavens with these (incorrect) layers of atmospheres:

1. troposphere
2. stratosphere
3. mesosphere
4. thermosphere
5. exosphere
6. ionosphere
7. magnetosphere

If you believe these are the atmosphere, then if you read my 3 quotes, then hopefully you will understand what I am writing:




The seven heavens are supposedly your 7 layers of atmospheres. The lamps supposedly referred to the stars.

Are you with me so far?

The next verse (41:12) show the connection between 41:12 (which mentioned stars) and 67:3-5 (which mentioned lamps).



Verse 67:5 say that Allah adorn the lower heaven with lamps, while verse 41:12 says that he adorn the lower heaven with stars. The connection between the two quotes is clear: Allah put stars in your lower layer of atmosphere or firmament.

According to you the lower heaven is the troposphere. So my question to you is this:

My point in my post 166 is that the troposphere doesn't have stars.

Are there "stars" in the troposphere?
​

So your Qur'an as well as your interpretations of the Qur'an are seriously flawed, and scientifically incorrect.

for God's sake can you keep it shorter , thats why i dont read your complete post you repeat a point in ur post 10 times and again thats the interpretation of the verse what the non-Muslim , i gave you the interpretation of verse which we muslims give , if you agree good enough if not ,

if you really want to know what the verse says pick up a arabic dictionary see the meaning word by word , you'll see what i was trying to say

 

[Islam432]

No i mean everything you are posting. Why do you think people will bother smashing your arguements when they're not even your own?

Now we've seen your mountains arguement before and Painted Wolf has already shown it to be false, what do you say to that? DO you have evidence to counter it?

wtf astrology was totally written by me , so is the part of embryology ,

also i gave the answer to Painted Wolf with references from books, i wasn't making it up , and he didn't told me the depth of Himalaya mountains when i asked

and for the detailed answer i already told to see the book on the page where is posted geology and mountains

 

[Islam432]

The Egyptian heiroglyphs for iron are 'baa en pet'; meaning 'metal from (the) sky'.

This heavily implies knowledge that the iron-nickel meteorites they were finding fell from space into the Earth's atmosphere.

again give the source

 

[Islam432]

You replied to something completely different. Explain the verse I quoted.

copy the full verse then

 

[gnostic]

for God's sake can you keep it shorter , thats why i dont read your complete post you repeat a point in ur post 10 times and again thats the interpretation of the verse what the non-Muslim , i gave you the interpretation of verse which we muslims give , if you agree good enough if not ,

if you really want to know what the verse says pick up a arabic dictionary see the meaning word by word , you'll see what i was trying to say

*sigh*

You brought up the subjects of the 7 heavens have to do with firmaments or layers of atmosphere.

The 2 quotes in the Qur'an (verses 41:12 and 67:3-5) I had provided, both mentioned lights, lamps and stars (depending on the translations) being placed in the lower heaven (or lowest heaven).

If heaven is atmosphere, then according to you the lowest atmosphere is the troposphere.

Are you with me so far?

Now my real question is:

Do the troposphere (lowest heaven) contained stars?

If this is true, then Allah don't know anything about astronomy, let alone meteorology and atmosphere.