Racism in Scripture! Why do people deny it?

[Kenny]

I'm delighted that Jesus healed her. Very much!

If I saw him healing and guiding seekers on earth, I would not complain!

And when it was understood that "In Christ there is neither male nor female", that Jesus revealed himself to a woman first, that from that point on women held positions of importance...

why do you overlook that? Or that there were women leaders in the TaNaKh?

So what exactly was Jesus trying to accomplish? Not a male dominated society but a Spirit led society no matter what gender or societal position.

Of course, you can throw out all these scriptures and continue believing what others say instead of asking and seeking.

 

[Spiderman]

did you just tell @KenS a pastor whose job is to read the Bible to read the Bible? I mean i don't care who is right or wrong here regarding the Bible and race but that's kinda funny to me.

Like if you are right then Ken needs a few lessons on how to read and interpret what he's reading and if you are wrong well then that explains why you didn't provide verse and chapter
Either way it's hilarious since its his job to read it. He still could be wrong mind you, I've met very crappy pastors, but it's still funny.

Some one else beat me to exact quotes, but obviously I won the debate regarding the Bible promoting slavery, and I think every one knows Jesus said racist things, and had some racist behavior. Refusing to heal a woman until she refers to children of Israel as human beings, and her people as dogs, and choosing Apostles only from the same ethnic background, is a racist mentality. Obviously!

Regarding slavery:


Exodus 21:7-9
7 - “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.
8 - If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her.
9 - If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter.

20 - “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged.
21 - But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

26 - “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye.
27 - If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

And keep in mind that this is God that say this.

Exodus 20:22
22 - And the LORD said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.

Exodus 21:1 (Next page)
1 - “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them.

I shall return with racist quotes from SCRIPTURES

 

[VoidCat]

Some one else beat me to exact quotes, but obviously I won the debate regarding the Bible promoting slavery, and I think every one knows Jesus said racist things, and had some racist behavior. Refusing to heal a woman until she refers to children of Israel as human beings, and her people as dogs, and choosing Apostles only from the same ethnic background, is a racist mentality. Obviously!

Regarding slavery:


Exodus 21:7-9
7 - “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.
8 - If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her.
9 - If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter.

20 - “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged.
21 - But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

26 - “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye.
27 - If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

And keep in mind that this is God that say this.

Exodus 20:22
22 - And the LORD said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.

Exodus 21:1 (Next page)
1 - “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them.

I shall return with racist quotes from SCRIPTURES

That's more like it then just telling someone to read the Bible. Got to give the man something to work with.

 

[Nimos]

This just means it has to replaced by another revelation. Can you show any verses in the Gospels that says the OT is not corrupted and intact? I've gotten the impression otherwise from Jesus (a) and Gospels. But let's see if you can.

Well the NT is written after Jesus died, so even if it were stated it would cause some other issues.

But the question you ask doesn't work.. "Can you show any verses in the Gospels that says the OT is not corrupted and intact?" that is like asking is there anywhere in the bible that it say that unicorns doesn't exist?... No... well then they exist.

The correct way, would be for you to show me where in the Gospels it say that the OT is corrupted? Jesus explicitly say that not even the smallest letter in the OT (law) is to be changed and that people should follow the law and that is how you are saved.

Jesus is angry at the Pharisees and those that knows the scriptures (can't remember what they are called) because they don't follow the law and exploit it for their benefit. He doesn't say anything about the OT having been corrupted, the OT and NT is not mentioned at all in the bible, its something we have added later to refer to them. The bible is a collection of scriptures, letters etc. it was never a complete book like we know it today, at least not what im aware of.

 

[Link]

Well the NT is written after Jesus died, so even if it were stated it would cause some other issues.

But the question you ask doesn't work.. "Can you show any verses in the Gospels that says the OT is not corrupted and intact?" that is like asking is there anywhere in the bible that it say that unicorns doesn't exist?... No... well then they exist.

The correct way, would be for you to show me where in the Gospels it say that the OT is corrupted? Jesus explicitly say that not even the smallest letter in the OT (law) is to be changed and that people should follow the law and that is how you are saved.

Jesus is angry at the Pharisees and those that knows the scriptures (can't remember what they are called) because they don't follow the law and exploit it for their benefit. He doesn't say anything about the OT having been corrupted, the OT and NT is not mentioned at all in the bible, its something we have added later to refer to them. The bible is a collection of scriptures, letters etc. it was never a complete book like we know it today, at least not what im aware of.

It can be said the way he talks about himself is to vindicate all anointed kings of God. See Christians interpret it's all about Jesus, but he talking John and Elijah in ways that show, all anointed kings of God are the light of God and there is always an instance of God channeling his light and his word on earth. Same way Quran talks about Talut, you can deduce it disagrees with what the Bible says about Saul.

You can deduce the whole of Gospels disagrees with what OT says negatively about anointed kings of God like Solomon and Saul. That God pre-chosen his kings and the are instances of the word that was with the first exalted ones.

Jesus (a) said he is the light of the world so long as he in this world. That means after him, someone is, and someone was before him, and someone is always that.

I read the Gospels, and I think he shows the anointed kings of God are very holy. So you can see a big disagreement just from that.

 

[halbhh]

I've heard this gradually let's get rid of it excuse from Muslims too. It doesn't frankly make sense, imagine you are a slave at that time. How does it make sense to that person who wants to be free? There is no huge economic repercussions, it's a lie. And even if there was, it doesn't justify enslaving humans.

Sorry, it makes no sense. I've heard this lame excuse from Muslims as well.

Deep topic, and it needs more than just a couple of sentences, but I'll edit to make it as brief as possible.

Suppose God made a law like this one:

"All the time, do for others what you'd have them do for you if you were in their situation, regardless of how convenient or hard that is, never any exceptions"

(i.e., Matthew 7:12)

Well....some few people would follow it a lot of the time -- like 2 times out of 3 when it would apply they'd do it...

And...a very few people would actually follow it most all the time.... (say 9 times out of 10 or better).

But most would not -- they'd break it, over and over, doing it maybe 1/3rd of the time or less.

Consider a total anti-slavery law: to not take advantage of others in even small ways:

Proposed law: Always pay everyone working for you at least as much money as you yourself have coming in as your typical income, so that if you are making for example $80,000 per year, you should pay every worker you or your business has also that same income, so that their income (for every worker) is equal to your own income.

Does it seem like a functional law that would work today in America?

Laws have to meet 2 basic standards to even work.

A good law has to be both:

• practically doable (so that they can be sustained over time by those following the law: sustainable to do, not self defeating)
• ...and...
• liked or respected (seen as good) by enough people so that they choose to follow the law

If a law fails to meet both of these standards, it is destructive.

If you'd like to see an example of law that failed on the 2nd standard and harmed the nation, look at Prohibition in the U.S. back in the 1920s-30s: it helped create more mobsters, and reduced the law following in general.

When a law isn't widely followed, the effect is to actually make law itself seem less....important/serious/respectable.

Another example: before the nationwide 55 mph speed limit in the U.S. of the 1970s, people mostly followed speed limits.

Now, today, after that destructive and harmful law, people largely ignore speed limits.

The bad law harmed the Rule of Law.

So, laws that actually help humanity have to always be mostly (usually) doable/acceptable to the majority of people, in order to actually be a benefit.

Therefore, The only good way to end slavery that will work is similar to what I was trying to recount in post #27 above -- the way God choose: incrementally over time, one small step at a time, a slow struggle with the human heart to change the human heart.

Until finally, one person at a time, every form of slavery, every way people take advantage of others -- is slowly extinguished.

As a species we are not there yet.

But many hearts have gotten closer to not want to take advantage of others even in commonplace ways....

You are there when you don't try in even the smallest way to put someone at a disadvantage, not even about their understandings, beliefs, preferences, etc.

Few are fully there, of course, but the goal is in sight, as Christ laid it out.


@Spiderman you might find the above of interest also.

I gave you the source: "The Holy Bible." Read it. Use Google!

 

[Nimos]

So what exactly was Jesus trying to accomplish? Not a male dominated society but a Spirit led society no matter what gender or societal position.

Not sure what you think of Paul? (but pretty sure it was him), but what did he say about women in the temples?

Now that you mention "male dominated" society.

 

[Spiderman]

Not sure what you think of Paul? (but pretty sure it was him), but what did he say about women in the temples?

Now that you mention "male dominated" society.

AMen! Preach it brotha!

 

[Link]

Therefore, The only good way to end slavery that will work is similar to what I was trying to recount in post #27 above -- the way God choose: incrementally over time, one small step at a time, a slow struggle with the human heart to change the human heart.

Until finally, one person at a time, every form of slavery, every way people take advantage of others -- is slowly extinguished.

I think it too long, and it would be God's fault if that is the case. He is a culprit and his regulating confused people for centuries to justify it. He's either too stupid to realize that or enjoyed and was cruel.

Also, there is universal human rights. Freedom is one. Anyone God who doesn't hold that, does not deserve to be worshiped in my understanding.

How is it some humans talking about human rights abolished slavery - yet God couldn't? They had to overthrow God's rules too which was the hardest part.

 

[halbhh]

I think it too long, and it would be God's fault if that is the case. He is a culprit and his regulating confused people for centuries to justify it. He's either too stupid to realize that or enjoyed and was cruel.

Also, there is universal human rights. Freedom is one. Anyone God who doesn't hold that, does not deserve to be worshiped in my understanding.

How is some humans talking about human rights abolished slavery - yet God couldn't? They had to overthrow God's rules too which was the hardest part.

Slavery is all around us even today.

The only way to end it is to change hearts, one person at a time.

That's why Christ came, to change hearts.

 

[Nimos]

It can be said the way he talks about himself is to vindicate all anointed kings of God. See Christians interpret it's all about Jesus, but he talking John and Elijah in ways that show, all anointed kings of God are the light of God and there is always an instance of God channeling his light and his word on earth. Same way Quran talks about Talut, you can deduce it disagrees with what the Bible says about Saul.

You can deduce the whole of Gospels disagrees with what OT says negatively about anointed kings of God like Solomon and Saul. That God pre-chosen his kings and the are instances of the word that was with the first exalted ones.

Jesus (a) said he is the light of the world so long as he in this world. That means after him, someone is, and someone was before him, and someone is always that.

I read the Gospels, and I think he shows the anointed kings of God are very holy. So you can see a big disagreement just from that.

Sorry don't know what you mean or what your point is?

 

[Link]

Slavery is all around us even today.

The only way to end it is to change hearts, one person at a time.

I agree, and I believe Quran hints at economic slavery in Surah Qasas. Most Muslims cannot realize this because they still do it and can't let go of the scholars who sanctioned slavery. The day we curse the scholars who sanction slavery, is the day we all be free. But Muslims love their scholars more then God, and so will accuse God of sanctioning slavery rather then let go of their scholars.

And this is not the only corruption we will be free when we let go of scholars. We will see the light of Quran and Sunnah for what it is. But Satan is not going to allow it easily.

I'll probably die by an extremist after I'm done with my mission but one day it might free them.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The argument here is not: "does the Bible promote racism?"

OF COURSE IT PROMOTES RACISM!

That is so obvious, it isn't even up for debate.

Just because the New Testament contains a few words of equality amongst "gentile, Jew, Greek, slave, free, man , woman etc. " There are many verses that say the EXACT OPPOSITE!

Not to mention, how you behave, and what your destiny and inclinations are going to be, according to different passages in Scripture, depend on how blessed or cursed the blood line is that you descend from, and who your ancestors are.

Depending on how much God doesn't like a group in Scripture, he sometimes wipes them out or kills their first born with an Angel of death, or punishes everyone with plagues, or drowns practically everyone, depending on what portion of Scripture you are reading.

(Speaking of flooding, I got caught in damn rapids I thought would push me down stream. Instead the rapids sucked me towards the damn, and everywhere I swam, rapids kept pushing me back to the same location. I called out for help, nobody was around. Everywhere I swam, the rapids kept pushing me to the same location. Something eventually told me to go to the bottom and start kicking off the rocks. Eventually I did that enough times, that I made it far enough downstream, that the rapids kept pushing me eventually to land.

By the time I reached land, I was so exhausted and oxygen deprived, that I was blind for a period of time (could not see), extremely nauseous, stumbling around sick, and I had a splitting headache that lasted the rest of the day. Drowning is an extremely frightening, miserable, scary way to die! And yet God drowned the world, including babies, children, and pregnant women. It's extremely mean and cruel!)

The descendants of ham were cursed by Noah, to serve the descendants of Noah's other brothers, for a silly "crime" they were innocent of, making it atrocious for Noah to place the curse, and even more despicable, cruel, and unjust, for an all powerful God to ratify and execute the curse!

Because of the Geographic location where descendants of Ham settled, people have used Scripture to justify slavery.

Granted, hundreds of thousands of Christians were abolitionists, and my hat goes off to them, but Jesus was not a slave abolitionist, and the New Testament justifies slavery, telling slaves "obey your masters".

God clearly, in Scripture, will bless one group of people, and their descendants, and favor them, and curse another. It's why I converted to Shinto, where there are no inerrant Scriptures, no known founder, the only Doctrine is "belief in the Kami (God , Spirits, 90% of the world roughly believes in Kami, so nothing to argue about in Shinto), no inerrant prophets, (and the highest Kami in Shinto is a cute sweet female, lady of light and sunshine, who grew to be greater and more venerated than her maker), because obviously Scripture contains error, and so do Prophets, and the creator is out to lunch, racist, and not nice!

At least if we judge by Scripture!

So tell me though, why do people who believe Scripture is without error, still claim to this day it is NOT racist? Why refuse to identify the obvious??

I thought that this was very well written. Your account of nearly drowning was compelling.

My only quibble is that it makes a case for the Bible being a guide to cruelty, but I don't see a strong argument for racism here. Biblical slavery, as far as I know, was about different nations of similar looking people enslaving one another. Your comment about Ham is valid, and perhaps it can be argued that this is racist as written, rather than just used as justification of racism later on. But the biblical flood and the drowning stuff doesn't sound like racism to me.

Still, nice post.

 

[halbhh]

I agree, and I believe Quran hints at economic slavery in Surah Qasqas. Most Muslims cannot realize this because they still do it and can't let go of the scholars who sanctioned slavery. The day we curse the scholars who sanction slavery, is the day we all be free. But Muslims love their scholars more then God, and so will accuse God of sanction slavery rather then let go of their scholars.

If a person also reads in the common bible (new and old testament) they see a long slow struggle (the entirety of all the scripture really) to change human hearts.

It's why Christ came -- for precisely that very reason, alone. To help us see our own wrongs, and to turn from them and seek God's way. And He helps us if we listen to him and learn from him (which he said directly).

 

[Link]

If a person also reads in the common bible (new and old testament) they see a long slow struggle (the entirety of all the scripture really) to change human hearts.

It's why Christ came -- for precisely that very reason, alone. To help us see our own wrongs, and to turn from them and seek God's way. And He helps us if we listen to him and learn from him (which he said directly).

I believe the solution is simple. Cut the middle men, and go straight to God's rope (the true middle way between God), and that is God's book and his anointed leaders and kings. No need of clergy telling us what God's book and his chosen ones teach. Learn it from them directly.

If society tasks itself to learn the knowledge, it will become enlightened. As long as we are told by others what God teaches that are not chosen by God, we will fail.

Quran for all we know (from neutral perspective) is or not from God. If it is, great, still, the interpretations and translations may or may not be correct. We can't just rely on people (scholars) that are not appointed by God.

I believe if it allows slavery than it can't be all from God. God made me human first and aware of his moral light before I read the Quran. Before I was told slavery was okay, I knew it was evil and I personally have the right of freedom.

 

[Link]

Sorry don't know what you mean or what your point is?

Gospels paints a different picture of God's anointed kings, Jesus being one of them, John being another, Elijah being one, they are talked in ways that are not in sink with how OT talks about God's anointed kings. He talks about being the star from the family of David. The stars of guidance are vindicated in the Gospels.

He even talks to disciples that they should not compare themselves to God's anointed kings and chosen ones. It's not compatible with how OT talks about anointed kings. He talks about his kingdom being beyond the world but from heaven and inward. This means kings of God like Saul were not just to rule outwardly but were a light inwardly ruling the hearts.

It refutes much of the OT as far as the anointed kings go. This is indirectly saying it's been corrupted.

 

[74x12]

The descendants of ham were cursed by Noah, to serve the descendants of Noah's other brothers, for a silly "crime" they were innocent of, making it atrocious for Noah to place the curse, and even more despicable, cruel, and unjust, for an all powerful God to ratify and execute the curse!

No, you need to pay more careful attention to the scripture. It was not Ham that was cursed. Actually the curse of Noah was on Canaan the first born son of Ham. The other sons of Ham were not cursed. By the way there is no reason to believe that Canaan was what is called black skinned. His brother Cush was because that's what the name Cush indicates in Hebrew. But, Canaan himself is the father of the Canaanites including the Phoenicians. They were not known as a black skinned race. They probably had similar skin tone to the Hebrews themselves. Ham also had another son Mizraim which was the father of the Egyptians who also were not a black skinned race. They were dark skinned; but not black and we know this from their artwork which shows all the different shades of color from various nations in their time period. So not all of Ham's sons were black. It's likely only Cush was what would be called "black". He was not cursed. He and his descendants seem to have lived in the land called "Cush" which is ancient Nubia. From there they spread out over all Africa and parts of Asia such as India.

But Canaan went to the land of Canaan which was actually rightfully given to the descendants of Shem not Ham. This is why later on the Israelites were told to take that land from the Canaanites. Because it never really belonged to Canaan. He knew the rules (when they divided up the land between the sons of Noah in the time of Pelag) and took the land anyway and Shem was not able to stop it from happening. But Shem probably also lived in "Canaan" land because he knew that one day his descendants would inherit the land. Shem is the likely founder of the city called "Salem" which would be Jerusalem.

So why did Noah only curse Canaan? Well he probably at the time was Ham's only son so it made sense. Furthermore this way; not all the descendants of Ham had to be cursed. So it had a mitigating effect.

The curse of Noah on Canaan predicted the eventual conquest of Canaan land by the Israelites with Joshua. It's not racist.

 

[Kenny]

Not sure what you think of Paul? (but pretty sure it was him), but what did he say about women in the temples?

Now that you mention "male dominated" society.

Actually, you have to take everything and not just a portion as well as culture and customs.

In Paul instance, he recognized women pastors and even listed women's names first (a break from the norm.)

He also said that "In Christ there is neither male nor female". Of course , if one's position is just "He is anti-woman" then one simply deletes all other contrary scriptures.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

The argument here is not: "does the Bible promote racism?"

OF COURSE IT PROMOTES RACISM!

That is so obvious, it isn't even up for debate.

Just because the New Testament contains a few words of equality amongst "gentile, Jew, Greek, slave, free, man , woman etc. " There are many verses that say the EXACT OPPOSITE!

Not to mention, how you behave, and what your destiny and inclinations are going to be, according to different passages in Scripture, depend on how blessed or cursed the blood line is that you descend from, and who your ancestors are.

Depending on how much God doesn't like a group in Scripture, he sometimes wipes them out or kills their first born with an Angel of death, or punishes everyone with plagues, or drowns practically everyone, depending on what portion of Scripture you are reading.

(Speaking of flooding, I got caught in damn rapids I thought would push me down stream. Instead the rapids sucked me towards the damn, and everywhere I swam, rapids kept pushing me back to the same location. I called out for help, nobody was around. Everywhere I swam, the rapids kept pushing me to the same location. Something eventually told me to go to the bottom and start kicking off the rocks. Eventually I did that enough times, that I made it far enough downstream, that the rapids kept pushing me eventually to land.

By the time I reached land, I was so exhausted and oxygen deprived, that I was blind for a period of time (could not see), extremely nauseous, stumbling around sick, and I had a splitting headache that lasted the rest of the day. Drowning is an extremely frightening, miserable, scary way to die! And yet God drowned the world, including babies, children, and pregnant women. It's extremely mean and cruel!)

The descendants of ham were cursed by Noah, to serve the descendants of Noah's other brothers, for a silly "crime" they were innocent of, making it atrocious for Noah to place the curse, and even more despicable, cruel, and unjust, for an all powerful God to ratify and execute the curse!

Because of the Geographic location where descendants of Ham settled, people have used Scripture to justify slavery.

Granted, hundreds of thousands of Christians were abolitionists, and my hat goes off to them, but Jesus was not a slave abolitionist, and the New Testament justifies slavery, telling slaves "obey your masters".

God clearly, in Scripture, will bless one group of people, and their descendants, and favor them, and curse another. It's why I converted to Shinto, where there are no inerrant Scriptures, no known founder, the only Doctrine is "belief in the Kami (God , Spirits, 90% of the world roughly believes in Kami, so nothing to argue about in Shinto), no inerrant prophets, (and the highest Kami in Shinto is a cute sweet female, lady of light and sunshine, who grew to be greater and more venerated than her maker), because obviously Scripture contains error, and so do Prophets, and the creator is out to lunch, racist, and not nice!

At least if we judge by Scripture!

So tell me though, why do people who believe Scripture is without error, still claim to this day it is NOT racist? Why refuse to identify the obvious??

If are you searching for the root of all evil in this world, then accept that the cause is not God but the devil.

Racism is evil and the devil is racist not God!

God did not send a flood because he was racist...that is an absurdly deficient interpretation of biblical theology.

 

[Spiderman]

Actually, you have to take everything and not just a portion as well as culture and customs.

In Paul instance, he recognized women pastors and even listed women's names first (a break from the norm.)

He also said that "In Christ there is neither male nor female". Of course , if one's position is just "He is anti-woman" then one simply deletes all other contrary scriptures.

Or , you can face the obvious facts that Scripture is confusing and contradicts itself!