Racism in Scripture! Why do people deny it?

[Spiderman]

If are you searching for the root of all evil in this world, then accept that the cause is not God but the devil.

Racism is evil and the devil is racist not God!

God did not send a flood because he was racist...that is an absurdly deficient interpretation of biblical theology.

I didn't say the flood was racist. I said it was cruel, harsh, mean, inhumane, disgusting genocide!

 

[Nimos]

Gospels paints a different picture of God's anointed kings, Jesus being one of them, John being another, Elijah being one, they are talked in ways that are not in sink with how OT talks about God's anointed kings. He talks about being the star from the family of David. The stars of guidance are vindicated in the Gospels.

He even talks to disciples that they should not compare themselves to God's anointed kings and chosen ones. It's not compatible with how OT talks about anointed kings. He talks about his kingdom being beyond the world but from heaven and inward. This means kings of God like Saul were not just to rule outwardly but were a light inwardly ruling the hearts.

It refutes much of the OT as far as the anointed kings go. This is indirectly saying it's been corrupted.

Ok think I know what you mean. Sorry if I misunderstand it.

This is probably a bit more complicated I don't think that is correct, now it is some time since I read the NT, so you should double check it . But Jesus as far as I know, never actually claim to be the King of the Jews, the Pharisees etc. say that he claim to be so and the son of God. But given what I just told you, that Jesus say that everyone should follow the law and you should believe Moses etc. I don't think he is all that concerned or even talks a lot about the kings in a negative way or as that still doesn't apply, he claim to be the son of God, he also denies Satan giving him a kingdom when he tempts him.

I think, this is my personal view, that Jesus cares about the law and doing what God commanded and he wanted to bring the Jews back to following the law and not the corrupt Pharisees, and that it was as that he was the savior. He never intended to be the King of the Jews as the OT talked about. Assuming he was the son of God, he was way more than that, so this were not his task or goal with what he did. But the Pharisees at the time, obviously under Roman control, would have had an "easy" task of getting Jesus killed. Because it was death penalty to claim to be a King when they obviously had an Emperor as that would have been seen as rebellion. So in John where we apparently have a lot of dialog with Jesus, he say this:

Joh 18:19 The high priest then questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching.
Joh 18:20 Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret.

John 18:33-37
33 - So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?”
34 - Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?”
35 - Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?”
36 - Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
37 - Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”

So Jesus doesn't really claim to be King over the Jews in that sense, he is far more.

I don't know if that is what you meant?

 

[Nimos]

Actually, you have to take everything and not just a portion as well as culture and customs.

In Paul instance, he recognized women pastors and even listed women's names first (a break from the norm.)

He also said that "In Christ there is neither male nor female". Of course , if one's position is just "He is anti-woman" then one simply deletes all other contrary scriptures.

So how do you interpret this?

1 Timothy 2:11-12
11 - Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
12 - I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Isn't it difficult to be a pastor if you are not allowed to teach?

Also how is it not a man dominated society if women are not allowed to exercise authority over men, but men over women are fine? Basically the women should just be quiet.

Also, I don't know who Paul is to allow or not allow anyone anything? Did he get the authority from Jesus or God?

 

[Clara Tea]

The argument here is not: "does the Bible promote racism?"

OF COURSE IT PROMOTES RACISM!

That is so obvious, it isn't even up for debate.

Just because the New Testament contains a few words of equality amongst "gentile, Jew, Greek, slave, free, man , woman etc. " There are many verses that say the EXACT OPPOSITE!

Not to mention, how you behave, and what your destiny and inclinations are going to be, according to different passages in Scripture, depend on how blessed or cursed the blood line is that you descend from, and who your ancestors are.

Depending on how much God doesn't like a group in Scripture, he sometimes wipes them out or kills their first born with an Angel of death, or punishes everyone with plagues, or drowns practically everyone, depending on what portion of Scripture you are reading.

(Speaking of flooding, I got caught in damn rapids I thought would push me down stream. Instead the rapids sucked me towards the damn, and everywhere I swam, rapids kept pushing me back to the same location. I called out for help, nobody was around. Everywhere I swam, the rapids kept pushing me to the same location. Something eventually told me to go to the bottom and start kicking off the rocks. Eventually I did that enough times, that I made it far enough downstream, that the rapids kept pushing me eventually to land.

By the time I reached land, I was so exhausted and oxygen deprived, that I was blind for a period of time (could not see), extremely nauseous, stumbling around sick, and I had a splitting headache that lasted the rest of the day. Drowning is an extremely frightening, miserable, scary way to die! And yet God drowned the world, including babies, children, and pregnant women. It's extremely mean and cruel!)

The descendants of ham were cursed by Noah, to serve the descendants of Noah's other brothers, for a silly "crime" they were innocent of, making it atrocious for Noah to place the curse, and even more despicable, cruel, and unjust, for an all powerful God to ratify and execute the curse!

Because of the Geographic location where descendants of Ham settled, people have used Scripture to justify slavery.

Granted, hundreds of thousands of Christians were abolitionists, and my hat goes off to them, but Jesus was not a slave abolitionist, and the New Testament justifies slavery, telling slaves "obey your masters".

God clearly, in Scripture, will bless one group of people, and their descendants, and favor them, and curse another. It's why I converted to Shinto, where there are no inerrant Scriptures, no known founder, the only Doctrine is "belief in the Kami (God , Spirits, 90% of the world roughly believes in Kami, so nothing to argue about in Shinto), no inerrant prophets, (and the highest Kami in Shinto is a cute sweet female, lady of light and sunshine, who grew to be greater and more venerated than her maker), because obviously Scripture contains error, and so do Prophets, and the creator is out to lunch, racist, and not nice!

At least if we judge by Scripture!

So tell me though, why do people who believe Scripture is without error, still claim to this day it is NOT racist? Why refuse to identify the obvious??

Racists don't recognize racism.

Like the TV character, Archie Bunker, they can walk into a room, think that they are praising a Jewish lawyer by telling him that he's good at lying, but that's okay because he doesn't have to obey the laws of God that Christians do....etc., and think that he's paying them complements. Archie Bunker was constantly praising Lionel Jefferson for having a good beat, and Lionel put on a southern accent, feigned ignorance, and said something to the effect of "yes suh, boss, we's Black folks always has good beats." Archie Bunker thinks that he paid him a complement.

After reading racist issues in the bible, many come away thinking that it is the natural way of things, and won't realize that they are being trained to be racists, and their own religion is training them.

Reverend Jimmy Swaggart (the one who hired prostitutes), claims (with glee in his voice) that the bible says that all Jews will be destroyed. But, Reverend Swaggart claims, the Jews will be destroyed by their traditional enemies (Arabs) and not destroyed by them. This is pure racism, yet, his congregation thinks that God will be killing off the riff raff.

When we start thinking of God's children as inferior, we run afoul of God.

Are Gays inferior? Should Gays be exterminated by Christians? Christians now claim that Gay marriage must be forbidden because it ruins Christian marriages, and they seek laws to do this. This will take away laws of inheritance, child custody, etc.

Should there be separation of church and state? Should one religion be allowed to tell all of the other religions what they can and cannot do?

The Religious Right has banned internet gambling, after telling us that they want to keep some of the money that they pay in taxes because people should be able to decide what they want to do with their own money.

Christianity is the religion of hatred.

 

[Spiderman]

So how do you interpret this?

1 Timothy 2:11-12
11 - Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
12 - I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Isn't it difficult to be a pastor if you are not allowed to teach?

Also how is it not a man dominated society if women are not allowed to exercise authority over men, men over women are fine? Basically the women should just be quiet.

Also, I don't know who Paul is to allow or not allow anyone anything? Did he get the authority from Jesus or God?

What @KenS refuses repeatedly to do is identify the obvious

The obvious: Scripture often says the exact opposite message in one verse, that it says in another, causing people to have opposite opinions. Hence, it is clear and blatantly obvious, Scripture contradicts itself! END OF STORY!

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I didn't say the flood was racist. I said it was cruel, harsh, mean, inhumane, disgusting genocide!

Are you blaming God for the free will decisions of men

I didn't say the flood was racist. I said it was cruel, harsh, mean, inhumane, disgusting genocide!

If the Bible's says God gave men freewill, and that salvation is a choice, what has any of your statements got to do with blaming God?
As I said, it's a deficient interpretation of scripture.
I have studied quite a number of apologetics debates between scholars...are you aware the atheists and agnostics almost always attempt to throw the moral argument at Christians.
Considering evolution cannot even explain how it is that rape and homosexuality are completely at odds with the evolutionary timeline, it never ceases to surprise me that those who do not believe in God would be silly enough to expose the deficiencies of an atheist world view by trying to debate morality with Christians!

So if racism = there must be no God

if there is no God, there must also be no devil. So then, in the absence of those two entities, according to an atheist who is responsible for evil in this world exactly?

 

[halbhh]

The Christians that helped end slavery were simply following the New Testament.

Christian abolitionism
Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. [1] Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from "un-institutional" Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.[1][2]
...
English preacher Charles Spurgeon had some of his sermons burned in America due to his censure of slavery, calling it "the foulest blot" and which "may have to be washed out in blood".[8] Methodist founder John Wesley denounced human bondage as "the sum of all villainies", and detailed its abuses.[9] In Georgia, primitive Methodists united with brethren elsewhere in condemning slavery. Many evangelical leaders in the United States such as Presbyterian Charles Finney and Theodore Weld, and women such as Harriet Beecher Stowe (daughter of abolitionist Lyman Beecher) and Sojourner Truth motivated hearers to support abolition.

Christian abolitionism - Wikipedia

Why did they do this?

Because they read the New Testament. Carefully (not just a few verses).

While initially slaves were told to stay and show Christ to their masters (to help bring them out of evil to God's way through Christ), after a time they were to 'seek their freedom'. And, converted slave owners would be required to begin to treat all servants as equal human beings, just like a literal brother or sister in their own family.

Example of the end of slavery in the New Testament:
Philemon 1 NIV
Which was only inevitable given: Matthew 7:12

 

[Clara Tea]

Then you didn't read the context. The woman got her child healed. (Or did you forget that?) And "For God so loved the WORLD" - did you see just the Jewish nation or did it say THE WORLD.

Just a minor oversight.

And you can "google" the earth is flat and find some nibbles on that too. And since I googled it... it MUST be true...
'I didn't wanna believe it either': Rapper BoB insists the Earth is flat

Jews are part of the world that God supposedly loves. Why did they (God's chosen ones) have to endure Hitler?

 

[Nimos]

What @KenS refuses repeatedly to do is identify the obvious

The obvious: Scripture often says the exact opposite message in one verse, that it says in another, causing people to have opposite opinions. Hence, it is clear and blatantly obvious, Scripture contradicts itself! END OF STORY!

There is no doubt about that they contradict each other. But they probably also shouldn't be read as a book. Each texts have different purposes and meanings it seems.

 

[halbhh]

What @KenS refuses repeatedly to do is identify the obvious

The obvious: Scripture often says the exact opposite message in one verse, that it says in another, causing people to have opposite opinions. Hence, it is clear and blatantly obvious, Scripture contradicts itself! END OF STORY!

Not when you read it as a whole (read through it all). See my post 67 just above for what reading it as a whole entails.
The Christians that caused the end of slavery (started the movement and grew the movement) were simply following the New Testament.

 

[Spiderman]

Not when you read it as a whole (read through it all). See my post 67 just above for what reading it as a whole entails.
The Christians that caused the end of slavery (started the movement and grew the movement) were simply following the New Testament.

Saying women should not talk in Church, women should not teach, women submit to your husband ....AnD THen another verse saying "there is not man nor woman etc." Is a huge contradiction, duh!

THe Bible justifies slavery in plenty places, even in the NT, but mainly in the old. My point is, I'm right, the Bible justifies it.

I praise Christian slave abolitionists, but where in Scripture does it say, "God does not approve of slavery. All slaves must be set free". Scripture orders slaves to obey masters. It is simply justification of slavery!
.

 

[Kenny]

Or , you can face the obvious facts that Scripture is confusing and contradicts itself!

Like I have always said, you are really good at repeating what everyone said but certainly lack in the knock, seek, find and ask department.

But, in our book, Jesus still loves you and me.

 

[halbhh]

Saying women should not talk in Church, women should not teach, women submit to your husband ....AnD THen another verse saying "there is not man nor woman etc." Is a huge contradiction, duh!

THe Bible justifies slavery in plenty places, even in the NT, but mainly in the old. My point is, I'm right, the Bible justifies it.

I praise Christian slave abolitionists, but where in Scripture does it say, "God does not approve of slavery. All slaves must be set free". Scripture orders slaves to obey masters. It is simply justification of slavery!

Ok, you have 3 significant topics here in 1 post, and they aren't small ones.

But you included the one thing I've already answered very well here in this thread: why some were temporarily told to remain slaves for a time to help bring their masters to Christ, and then later told to 'seek their freedom' and how all slave owners would have to essentially free their slaves and make right by them, or else would never see heaven (but instead those slave owners would die in the "second death" -- perish for eternity).

Did you see that one I already answered -- about how God works to end the evil of human slavery -- of every way we take advantage of others?

We can also learn that women are to be in leading and important positions in Christian churches, and were from the very start (as we see in Romans chapter 16), and why Paul told some women in certain places to for a time to quiet down -- stop seeking total revolution of all old social norms all at once. Those women there would need (for that moment) to continue to behave in the old way of acting (quiet, not loud and challenging), for a while longer, for the sake of the "weak" men. (1rst Corinthians chapter 8 is the key to understanding the surprising sacrifices Christians were expected to make at that time)

 

[Spiderman]

Are you blaming God for the free will decisions of men

If the Bible's says God gave men freewill, and that salvation is a choice, what has any of your statements got to do with blaming God?
As I said, it's a deficient interpretation of scripture.
I have studied quite a number of apologetics debates between scholars...are you aware the atheists and agnostics almost always attempt to throw the moral argument at Christians.
Considering evolution cannot even explain how it is that rape and homosexuality are completely at odds with the evolutionary timeline, it never ceases to surprise me that those who do not believe in God would be silly enough to expose the deficiencies of an atheist world view by trying to debate morality with Christians!

So if racism = there must be no God

if there is no God, there must also be no devil. So then, in the absence of those two entities, according to an atheist who is responsible for evil in this world exactly?

Don't know. I'm a devout Shinto adherent who accepted Jesus as Lord and savior. I'm not atheist. God is at fault for the evil in the world, because he lets the Devil run wild, tempt, deceive people, and God leaves people weak, sick, confused, and there is no real unity in an extremely divided Christianity.

Catholics are called " Idolaters, Whore of Babylon , prostitute Church" by Protestants. Catholics call Protestants Heretics. Both of them believe they are right

God refuses to guide people and leaves them confused. The Devil divides and conquers. God's cruel silence, refusal to give people open eyes, wisdom, and understanding, creates chaos, death, misery, destruction, waste of time, waste of talent, waste of lives.

The cruelty of God, his refusal to guide and Shepherd seekers of truth, is responsible for so much evil, suffering, confusion, and loss of souls, it makes me want to vomit ( thinking about what a disgusting, narcissistic, sadistic, inconsiderate, irresponsible God we have!)

 

[Spiderman]

Ok, you have 3 significant topics here in 1 post, and they aren't small ones.

But you included the one thing I've already answered very well here in this thread: why some were temporarily told to remain slaves for a time to help bring their masters to Christ, and then later told to 'seek their freedom' and how all slave owners would have to essentially free their slaves and make right by them, or else would never see heaven (but instead those slave owners would die in the "second death" -- perish for eternity).

Did you see that one I already answered -- about how God works to end the evil of human slavery -- of every way we take advantage of others?

We can also learn that women are to be in leading and important positions in Christian churches, and were from the very start (as we see in Romans chapter 16), and why Paul told some women in certain places to for a time to quiet down -- stop seeking total revolution of all old social norms all at once. Those women there would need (for that moment) to continue to behave in the old way of acting (quiet, not loud and challenging), for a while longer, for the sake of the "weak" men. (1rst Corinthians chapter 8 is the key to understanding the surprising sacrifices Christians were expected to make at that time)

However, many people do not have the same understanding you have, because a lot of the things you believe, are not contained in scripture. It's things you're adding to scripture.

 

[halbhh]

However, many people do not have the same understanding you have, because a lot of the things you believe, are not contained in scripture. It's things you're adding to scripture.

Ah, but I'm pretty much quoting word for word paraphrases and summaries of actual passages. Just the text, accurately conveyed with more context.



Here's one, from Philemon, about the slave to be free in all ways, and become now an equal family member, basically:

"...the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

17So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me."

-- Paul writing to Philemon about how Philemon was to now treat the (soon former) slave Onesimus. Philemon 1 NIV

How did I find this?

I didn't.

I just read through all the New Testament, and it's just simply one of many things that come to mind if I think on a topic. So, see, very many (most) of these natural questions like people ask are already directly and fully answered in the text, even in such a plain way as this.

 

[MyM]

The argument here is not: "does the Bible promote racism?"

OF COURSE IT PROMOTES RACISM!

That is so obvious, it isn't even up for debate.

Just because the New Testament contains a few words of equality amongst "gentile, Jew, Greek, slave, free, man , woman etc. " There are many verses that say the EXACT OPPOSITE!

Not to mention, how you behave, and what your destiny and inclinations are going to be, according to different passages in Scripture, depend on how blessed or cursed the blood line is that you descend from, and who your ancestors are.

Depending on how much God doesn't like a group in Scripture, he sometimes wipes them out or kills their first born with an Angel of death, or punishes everyone with plagues, or drowns practically everyone, depending on what portion of Scripture you are reading.

(Speaking of flooding, I got caught in damn rapids I thought would push me down stream. Instead the rapids sucked me towards the damn, and everywhere I swam, rapids kept pushing me back to the same location. I called out for help, nobody was around. Everywhere I swam, the rapids kept pushing me to the same location. Something eventually told me to go to the bottom and start kicking off the rocks. Eventually I did that enough times, that I made it far enough downstream, that the rapids kept pushing me eventually to land.

By the time I reached land, I was so exhausted and oxygen deprived, that I was blind for a period of time (could not see), extremely nauseous, stumbling around sick, and I had a splitting headache that lasted the rest of the day. Drowning is an extremely frightening, miserable, scary way to die! And yet God drowned the world, including babies, children, and pregnant women. It's extremely mean and cruel!)

The descendants of ham were cursed by Noah, to serve the descendants of Noah's other brothers, for a silly "crime" they were innocent of, making it atrocious for Noah to place the curse, and even more despicable, cruel, and unjust, for an all powerful God to ratify and execute the curse!

Because of the Geographic location where descendants of Ham settled, people have used Scripture to justify slavery.

Granted, hundreds of thousands of Christians were abolitionists, and my hat goes off to them, but Jesus was not a slave abolitionist, and the New Testament justifies slavery, telling slaves "obey your masters".

God clearly, in Scripture, will bless one group of people, and their descendants, and favor them, and curse another. It's why I converted to Shinto, where there are no inerrant Scriptures, no known founder, the only Doctrine is "belief in the Kami (God , Spirits, 90% of the world roughly believes in Kami, so nothing to argue about in Shinto), no inerrant prophets, (and the highest Kami in Shinto is a cute sweet female, lady of light and sunshine, who grew to be greater and more venerated than her maker), because obviously Scripture contains error, and so do Prophets, and the creator is out to lunch, racist, and not nice!

At least if we judge by Scripture!

So tell me though, why do people who believe Scripture is without error, still claim to this day it is NOT racist? Why refuse to identify the obvious??

It's beyond me. I cannot attribute such a book as full proof to be from God. I will never attribute unto him some of the things written in the Bible to be from God. It's just not appropriate language that God would talk like that. God doesn't talk in a filthy way. But that is just my opinion. No one will fess up to it I'm afraid.

 

[savagewind]

God curses entire bloodlines of people, blesses and favors others, curses descendants of ham to be slaves!

It is in the end, the same error as racism!

In my opinion, probably so.

God's people were favored by God; race to righteousness. All others were on their own to wherever they were going. If humanity is a race, God's people are favored by far. God and everyone in Heaven has to be on their side.

 

[Spiderman]

It's beyond me. I cannot attribute such a book as full proof to be from God. I will never attribute unto him some of the things written in the Bible to be from God. It's just not appropriate language that God would talk like that. God doesn't talk in a filthy way. But that is just my opinion. No one will fess up to it I'm afraid.

Yeah, but the Quran is extremely bigoted towards Christians, Polytheists, Jews, and Christians. The Quran has graphic tortures, mutilations, says infidels will be crucified, have boiling water poured on their faces , and their hands and feet cut off!!

That is so sick, foul, psychopathic, sadistic, barbaric, vicious, cruel, and wrong, I don't know how you could say the Quran is better than the Bible!??

 

[Spiderman]

Ah, but I'm pretty much quoting word for word paraphrases and summaries of actual passages. Just the text, accurately conveyed with more context.



Here's one, from Philemon, about the slave to be free in all ways, and become now an equal family member, basically:

"...the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

17So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me."

-- Paul writing to Philemon about how Philemon was to now treat the (soon former) slave Onesimus. Philemon 1 NIV

How did I find this?

I didn't.

I just read through all the New Testament, and it's just simply one of many things that come to mind if I think on a topic. So, see, very many (most) of these natural questions like people ask are already directly and fully answered in the text, even in such a plain way as this.

NO, your Scripture verses don't say what you claim they do, so I'm not impressed.

The Bible doesn't say to abolish slavery. The Bible sanctions slavery. END OF STORY!

It's actually a fact! You're finding a few verses, and some of your claims are ludicrous, like racist people will not enter Heaven.

Was that you who said that? Racist people and slave owners don't necessarily lose salvation. Do you disagree?

Job was the most righteousness upright man, and he had many slaves. I'm guessing he is enjoying Heaven with countless other people who owned slaves on earth.

But I don't state things as fact. I see that you on the other hand love to decide Scripture means something it doesn't say. You make big leaps and stretches. I'm not buying it!