Racist memes spread after false claims that immigrants kill and eat pets.

[Father Heathen]

Right, so this is why I've become jaded about providing examples and citations. You were given two examples, you ignored them.

It's like you play the "whoever makes a claim first, loses" game. boring af.

You gave me two random names, not full names. How was I supposed to know who the hell you were asking about?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Seems like a correlation / causation error.

My point is that the existence of hate speech laws doesn't necessarily lead to their being abused or applied overly broadly. It is possible for a country to be highly free and still have them.

 

[wellwisher]

Trump, JD Vance repeat baseless claim Haitian immigrants are eating pets as Ohio officials say there is no evidence

The viral claim about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, has garnered millions of views on X, and former President Donald Trump repeated it in the debate.

www.cbsnews.com

It seems the right is doubling down even after local police claimed there was no evidence to support the accusations.

Old fashion African voodoo involves animal sacrifices. What they have in Haiti is a Catholic hybrid of voodoo. It is possible the pets are not being eaten, but sacrificed.

Although eating dogs in common to some third world cultures, and is even still practiced in pockets of first world cultures. Dogs are eaten to enhance fertility and is usually done by the males, butnot so much by the females. When I visited South Koreas, with my girlfriend of the time, in 1987. There some venders raised a certain breed of dog, that was earmarked as a food animal. This was in the Capital Seoul City. It was not all breeds of dogs. My guess is the lack of animal pet distinctions for food, was for animal sacrifices.

Vodun; African voodoo, involves animal sacrifices to both ancestors and other spirits, a practice called vɔ in Fon. Animal species commonly used for sacrifice include birds, dogs, cats, goats, rams, and bulls. There is evidence that in parts of West Africa, human sacrifice was also performed prior to European colonisation.

This makes sense, in that the Haitian immigrants are far away, in a strange and unknown land, and may feel the need for help.They seek it from their spiritual world, to give them directions. We get a clash of culture, since in the US, we only sacrifice food animals and eat them.

 

[SkepticThinker]

This thread is so bizarre.

"Prove poor people are more likely to commit petty theft."

Bruh.

Poverty is one of the leading causes of crime. Who doesn't know this.

You're not just claiming that "poor people steal things" though.
You're claiming that they steal peoples' pets in order to EAT THEM.
Giant difference between those two, don't you think?

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, my posts look this way to people who don't bother to try understanding them or don't like truths.

So you claim, but the responses in the thread say otherwise.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

All of the countries that rank above the US both for internet freedom and overall freedom per the above index have stricter speech laws than the US, and most of them have hate speech laws (especially for extreme cases like Nazi speech).

Seems like a correlation / causation error.

I believe that most informed and intelligent individuals would recognize it, not as an error nor as proof, but as evidence that to many seem invested in discounting out of hand.

 

[metis]

Old fashion African voodoo involves animal sacrifices. What they have in Haiti is a Catholic hybrid of voodoo. It is possible the pets are not being eaten, but sacrificed.

Although eating dogs in common to some third world cultures, and is even still practiced in pockets of first world cultures. Dogs are eaten to enhance fertility and is usually done by the males, butnot so much by the females. When I visited South Koreas, with my girlfriend of the time, in 1987. There some venders raised a certain breed of dog, that was earmarked as a food animal. This was in the Capital Seoul City. It was not all breeds of dogs. My guess is the lack of animal pet distinctions for food, was for animal sacrifices.



This makes sense, in that the Haitian immigrants are far away, in a strange and unknown land, and may feel the need for help.They seek it from their spiritual world, to give them directions. We get a clash of culture, since in the US, we only sacrifice food animals and eat them.

That's all fine & dandy, but the main point is that the mayor and governor have said there's no evidence of pet obductions there.

 

[icehorse]

You gave me two random names, not full names. How was I supposed to know who the hell you were asking about?

Because our conversation had a context and I told you how those two people were examples of the context we were discussing.

If I was less charitable, I might suspect you don't want to put any energy at all into debating

 

[icehorse]

I believe that most informed and intelligent individuals would recognize it, not as an error nor as proof, but as evidence that to many seem invested in discounting out of hand.

Yup, I discount censorship out of hand. Free speech is precious, fragile, and essential. All efforts to curtail free speech must be defeated.

 

[Stevicus]

Most of the developed world has either hate speech laws or at least stricter speech laws than the US. The US is an anomaly in this regard. I do believe that many countries abuse hate speech laws and take them or their application too far, but there are many countries that have them and consistently rank above the US in many freedom indices by multiple metrics. For example, this is the ranking for internet freedom from Freedom House:

Countries

Freedom House assesses the level of internet freedom in 72 countries around the world through its annual Freedom on the Net report. Click on a country name below to access the full country narrative report.

freedomhouse.org

All of the countries that rank above the US both for internet freedom and overall freedom per the above index have stricter speech laws than the US, and most of them have hate speech laws (especially for extreme cases like Nazi speech).

I can see solid arguments against hate speech laws, especially given how they can sometimes be abused to suppress speech that is inconvenient to political powers. I'm still of the belief that they're a net positive if implemented and delineated properly, though.

I think much of it depends on how it's approached. Even in countries where there are hate speech laws, those who might be purveyors of hateful views simply change the wording of their message in such a way as to avoid any criminal charges being leveled against them. I'm not sure if it has any effect on political outcomes, although many countries have been moving in a rightward direction, with or without hate speech laws.

 

[icehorse]

My point is that the existence of hate speech laws doesn't necessarily lead to their being abused or applied overly broadly. It is possible for a country to be highly free and still have them.

Possible, but not likely in the long run. Hate speech laws are an early step towards authoritarianism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's perfectly possible.

... in the same sense that it's "perfectly possible" that you are stealing and eating pets in your community.

I don't know either way but given some of their religious practices it's not a leap to assume some folks may be taking pets from the streets for sacrifice.

If this is about religious practices, why not smear religious people in general instead of immigrants in general?

 

[Father Heathen]

Old fashion African voodoo involves animal sacrifices. What they have in Haiti is a Catholic hybrid of voodoo. It is possible the pets are not being eaten, but sacrificed.

Although eating dogs in common to some third world cultures, and is even still practiced in pockets of first world cultures. Dogs are eaten to enhance fertility and is usually done by the males, butnot so much by the females. When I visited South Koreas, with my girlfriend of the time, in 1987. There some venders raised a certain breed of dog, that was earmarked as a food animal. This was in the Capital Seoul City. It was not all breeds of dogs. My guess is the lack of animal pet distinctions for food, was for animal sacrifices.



This makes sense, in that the Haitian immigrants are far away, in a strange and unknown land, and may feel the need for help.They seek it from their spiritual world, to give them directions. We get a clash of culture, since in the US, we only sacrifice food animals and eat them.

Again, the local police said they had no evidence of pet theft, be it for food and/or ritual. Of course, the right are incorporating the spooky voodoo into their fearmongering since religious conservatives look down on religious beliefs and practices that differ from their own.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yup, I discount censorship out of hand. Free speech is precious, fragile, and essential.

As are Haitian children. But I suspect that you'll remain untouched by any of this, hence your privileged, "out of hand" dismissal of United States free speech exceptions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Hate speech" is nothing but a thought/speech control concept. It's Orwellian garbage. In America, we have a little something called the First Amendment so legally there's no such thing as "hate speech".

Canadian hate speech laws are very similar to the laws against "fighting words" and threats in the US.

Just as it would be illegal in the US to tell a crowd to go and kill a specific individual, in Canada, it's illegal to tell a crowd to go and kill the first (insert race, religion, whatever) that they find.

... and even then, we give people a pass if their threatening language is an "expression of a sincere religious belief," which I find ridiculous, personally.

 

[icehorse]

As are Haitian children. But I suspect that you'll remain untouched by any of this, hence your privileged, "out of hand" dismissal of United States free speech exceptions.

I understand the long-standing, "imminent violence" test, and I agree with it. But I don't think it should be eroded as your apparently authoritarian stance would prefer.

(And as an aside, I think we ought to be able to disagree without using terms like "privileged". The only reason I said "authoritarian" was to respond to your word "privileged". Why can't we just debate ideas, and not make it personal?)

 

[Spice]

Okay, so you seem angry but I don't really know about what or what your point is. But my point is, if you can't even express yourself honestly, you have no freedom at all. You're just living under a tyranny that thinks it can decide what you are allowed to express. How can you support that?

Agreed. It's a personal responsibility to "mind your tongue" and the accept the consequences that follow.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But I don't think it should be eroded as your apparently authoritarian stance would prefer.

"authoritarian"? See Hate speech laws by country.

I find it funny that you not use the term in response to the @Debater Slayer post #302. Was he likewise taking an "apparently authoritarian stance"?

 

[icehorse]

"authoritarian"? See Hate speech laws by country.

Sorry to say, governments in "the west" are becoming more authoritarian and so-called "hate speech" laws are a leading indicator of that.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Sorry to say, governments in "the west" are becoming more authoritarian and so-called "hate speech" laws are a leading indicator of that.

(Just FYI, I was editing my post while you wrer responding to it. Sorry.)