Racist memes spread after false claims that immigrants kill and eat pets.

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you advocate prosecuting people for
saying what Trump said about Haitians?

I advocate legislation against social media to reign in the nonsense that has pushed country after country to violence.
I advocate warning and then fining people who spread such inflammatory fallacies, and imprisoning people when it leads to insurrection, mass violence and people getting killed (basically holding them accountable for thier own actions).

 

[Revoltingest]

I advocate legislation against social media to reign in the nonsense that has pushed country after country to violence.
I advocate warning and then fining people who spread such inflammatory fallacies, and imprisoning people when it leads to insurrection, mass violence and people getting killed (basically holding them accountable for thier own actions).

There is no right or wrong here. It's personal
preference in weighing the costs & benefits.
We're going to agree to disagree about the
extent that government should criminalize
our speech.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is no right or wrong here. It's personal
preference in weighing the costs & benefits.
We're going to agree to disagree about the
extent that government should criminalize
our speech.

I think our disagreement is over words and whether or not those can violate your neighbors nose.
A whip can raise a welt, but a vicious tongue can break bones. (Sirach 28:17)

 

[Revoltingest]

I think our disagreement is over words....

No, it's over substance.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think much of it depends on how it's approached. Even in countries where there are hate speech laws, those who might be purveyors of hateful views simply change the wording of their message in such a way as to avoid any criminal charges being leveled against them. I'm not sure if it has any effect on political outcomes, although many countries have been moving in a rightward direction, with or without hate speech laws.

Yes, there are extremist parties that have rebranded and repackaged their messaging in such a way that they now have more mainstream appeal despite hate speech laws and social backlash on the older expressions of their views. I think Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy, Marine Le Pen's National Rally, and the Alternative for Germany are examples of that pattern.

Still, reducing the leeway for direct expression of certain speech, such as support for Nazism, seems to me an overall positive thing, since, in my opinion, some speech amounts to incitement by default—and I think Nazism with its inherently genocidal and violent aspects falls within that category.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It is also possible that such laws would be mis-used.

Yes. I think delineating the limits of hate speech from a legal perspective would need extreme caution and due diligence.

Many countries criminalize speech that you & I
would consider valid.

Yes. I also consider blasphemy laws a particularly egregious example of overly broad application of hate speech laws (or a subset thereof, more specifically).

Perhaps you'd trust Biden
or Harris with such power. But what if Trump wins?
He's proposed making it illegal to criticize judges.

I wouldn't trust any of them—or any individual president or official no matter their beliefs—with such power. However, it is my understanding that in most developed countries that have hate speech laws, the power to define and apply them doesn't lie in any one person's hands.

Revoltistanian saying about the fruits of limited government....
If you grant it power to do something for you,
you also grant it the power to do something to you.

Yes. I would say that this applies to many laws that are already in place throughout the developed world, so it seems to me to emphasize the need for caution and separation of powers rather than a need to oppose any given law per se.

 

[Argentbear]

It's all in the eye of the beholder.
In Germany, "sweeping slurs", eg, misogyny,
will invite a police raid to one's home.

German police conduct raids against people suspected of posting misogynistic hate speech online

German authorities have carried out raids across Germany against people suspected of posting misogynistic hate speech online.

apnews.com

You really don't know how oppressive such
laws could be here in USA under the various
regimes that come & go.

not just "sweeping slurs" Here is an example of the misogamy.the police were hunting for in their raids. I can onl print a few on here

"What are women made for? For reproduction! The woman is closer to the animals, the man to the heavenly beings."

"Men are human beings in the true sense of the word. Women participate in being human, but they do not represent human beings. You can also put it more crudely like this: Women are second-class human beings. - Or: women are inferior human beings."

"Women are born whores and seek to seduce good men to their evil manipulations. Do not be fooled by the false innocence of the young ones, as soon as they can speak and walk they work to seduce men like the tiny whores they are. "

 

[Stevicus]

Yes, there are extremist parties that have rebranded and repackaged their messaging in such a way that they now have more mainstream appeal despite hate speech laws and social backlash on the older expressions of their views. I think Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy, Marine Le Pen's National Rally, and the Alternative for Germany are examples of that pattern.

Still, reducing the leeway for direct expression of certain speech, such as support for Nazism, seems to me an overall positive thing, since, in my opinion, some speech amounts to incitement by default—and I think Nazism with its inherently genocidal and violent aspects falls within that category.

Similarly, in the U.S., many former supporters of the KKK started an organization called the CCC, the Council of Conservative Citizens. They did it because they knew that the KKK white robes (along with silly Nazi uniforms and insignia) would be wholly rejected by the public. No matter if it's legal or not, extremely few people would openly support a direct expression of Nazism.

 

[Quagmire]

Learnding is fun, especially when I'm the teacher (or so I've been told).

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes. I think delineating the limits of hate speech from a legal perspective would need extreme caution and due diligence.

Yes. I also consider blasphemy laws a particularly egregious example of overly broad application of hate speech laws (or a subset thereof, more specifically).

Agree.

I wouldn't trust any of them—or any individual president or official no matter their beliefs—with such power. However, it is my understanding that in most developed countries that have hate speech laws, the power to define and apply them doesn't lie in any one person's hands.

"Other countries do it" only suggests examining
their system. It does not mean automatically
that adopting it will be a solution better than
the problem.

Yes. I would say that this applies to many laws that are already in place throughout the developed world, so it seems to me to emphasize the need for caution and separation of powers rather than a need to oppose any given law per se.

USA has passed many laws to solve problems,
& made things worse, eg, civil forfeiture (ie,
cops legally taking & keeping cash from innocent
people with no due process). There are others.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Agree.

"Other countries do it" only suggests examining
their system. It does not mean automatically
that adopting it will be a solution better than
the problem.


USA has passed many laws to solve problems,
& made things worse, eg, civil forfeiture (ie,
cops legally taking & keeping cash from innocent
people with no due process). There are others.

But would you not agree that it is a worthwhile goal to try to limit incitement to violence? Even knowing that said incitement may be nothing but words (speech)?

 

[Revoltingest]

not just "sweeping slurs" Here is an example of the misogamy.the police were hunting for in their raids. I can onl print a few on here

"What are women made for? For reproduction! The woman is closer to the animals, the man to the heavenly beings."

"Men are human beings in the true sense of the word. Women participate in being human, but they do not represent human beings. You can also put it more crudely like this: Women are second-class human beings. - Or: women are inferior human beings."

"Women are born whores and seek to seduce good men to their evil manipulations. Do not be fooled by the false innocence of the young ones, as soon as they can speak and walk they work to seduce men like the tiny whores they are. "

You & I have fundamentally different
priorities about security & regulation.
We'll agree to disagree.

 

[Revoltingest]

Learnding is fun, especially when I'm the teacher (or so I've been told).

Teaching looks more fun than being the supernintendo.
Chalmers always looks angry or disappointed.

 

[Revoltingest]

But would you not agree that it is a worthwhile goal to try to limit incitement to violence?

Yes indeedilly doo!

Even knowing that said incitement may be nothing but words (speech)?

Hand gestures are speech too.
Cops often arrest people for giving them the finger,
despite this having been adjudicated to be protected
speech under the 1st Amendment. Many politicians
want to criminalize this. Many politicians have labeled
criticism of Israel as anti-semitic hate speech. Same
for supporting Palestinians.

Under an imperial presidency, the 1st Amendment
could wither on the vine. It already happened even
without that, eg the 6th (Petty Offense Doctrine), the
14th (military draft), & the 5th (Kelo v New London).

Because of all that, I prefer to deny government the
power to criminalize hate speech.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Ah yes, the old "it's not happening" ruse

Of course. That tactic is so common now it's actually expected and anticipated.

 

[Quagmire]

It's all in the eye of the beholder.
In Germany, "sweeping slurs", eg, misogyny,
will invite a police raid to one's home.

German police conduct raids against people suspected of posting misogynistic hate speech online

German authorities have carried out raids across Germany against people suspected of posting misogynistic hate speech online.

apnews.com

You really don't know how oppressive such
laws could be here in USA under the various
regimes that come & go.

And not just oppressive but stupid: who in their right mind would think that it's a good idea to keep the crazy people from letting us know who they are?

 

[Stevicus]

It seems they tracked down the origins of the rumor.

Source of Trump’s Dog-Eating Immigrants Claim Unmasked

The poster got the story from a friend of her daughter who heard it from an “acquaintance of a friend.” Trump quoted her, but “I don’t have any proof,” says Patient Zero.

www.thedailybeast.com

Reporters from NewsGuard, a company that works to counter online misinformation, tracked down the poster, a Springfield woman named Erika Lee, 35, who admitted to being the source of the Facebook rumor that traveled from her keyboard to Trump in just a matter of days. But Lee said she had not actually witnessed the story—concerning a cat found hung from a tree for butchering.

Instead, she said a neighbor named Kimberly Newton, 43, told her about it. When contacted by NewsGuard, Newton said, “I’m not sure I’m the most credible source because I don’t actually know the person who lost the cat,” adding that the cat’s owner was the “acquaintance of a friend,” and therefore not of the daughter mentioned in the post. Newton added: “I don’t have any proof.”

So, she heard it from a neighbor, who got it from an acquaintance of a friend.

Neighborhood gossip.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It seems they tracked down the origins of the rumor.

Source of Trump’s Dog-Eating Immigrants Claim Unmasked

The poster got the story from a friend of her daughter who heard it from an “acquaintance of a friend.” Trump quoted her, but “I don’t have any proof,” says Patient Zero.

www.thedailybeast.com

So, she heard it from a neighbor, who got it from an acquaintance of a friend.

Neighborhood gossip.

Neighborhood gossip thats leading to bomb threats.

 

[Pogo]

Neighborhood gossip thats leading to bomb threats.

And the quality of information surrounding Dear Leader.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Because some probably are.

This may be true. It may also be true that other people are shooting the pets either as nuisances (cats eating birds) or because they are simply cruel.

We have a problem here with teenagers shooting pet cats with bb guns.