Rape culture

[Curious George]

We're talking about culturally, Not legalities

Our legal system reflects our culture.

 

[McBell]

Society. The one that created the laws. And please know that squeaks, the mouse in my pocket, agrees.

Society may have made the laws where you are from, but here in the USA society does not have much influence on the laws.

 

[McBell]

Our legal system reflects our culture.

like hell it does.

 

[freethinker44]

The point is that guns, music, movies, have all been cited as part of our culture encouraging murder.

They've all been cited as part of a culture of encouraging rape too.

Also, it may not be relevant, but I find it funny that one of the most controversial things about Grand Theft Auto was that secret sex scene in San Andreas. It's like, "Really? That's what you find objectionable about it?" I can't tell you how many times I've played those games and they ended in me trying to see how many cops I can kill before they gun me down, but yeah the sex was the worst. We can kill cops all day long but OH MY GOD THEY'RE HAVING SEX!!!!

 

[Curious George]

like hell it does.

Please elaborate.

 

[Curious George]

They've all been cited as part of a culture of encouraging rape too.

Also, it may not be relevant, but I find it funny that one of the most controversial things about Grand Theft Auto was that secret sex scene in San Andreas. It's like, "Really? That's what you find objectionable about it?" I can't tell you how many times I've played those games and they ended in me trying to see how many cops I can kill before they gun me down, but yeah the sex was the worst. We can kill cops all day long but OH MY GOD THEY'RE HAVING SEX!!!!

I agree that aspects of our society very much overreact to any sex, but I can also assure you that plenty of people had problems with the violence in gta.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

So I just watched a video, and the topic was that rape culture doesn't exist.

I will post the video, but I am not trying to debate the contents of the video, just the topic of rape culture. The video is just for reference because I mentioned it. Here's the video. (By the way, I want to mention I don't like the amazing atheist and generally try to avoid his videos as I disagree with pretty much everything he says. I just watched this one because I saw all the other videos on my Youtube recommended list and I wanted something quick to watch while I was eating dinner.)

[youtube]1KQQ1bzQn0k[/youtube]
There's No Rape Culture! - YouTube

Now, I watched this expecting to be thoroughly disgusted and reaffirm my distaste for the amazing atheist's videos, but he actually made some good points here. So I'll play devils advocate here and argue against rape culture. To start it off, here are a couple key points to discuss:
- blaming the victim isn't exclusive to the crime of rape
- sympathizing with the criminal isn't exclusive to rape

I didn't (and will not) watch the 20+ minute video, but I just thought I'd point out that if the above points are arguments he's raising, neither one of them entails that "rape culture does not exist", if rape culture is defined as certain social tendencies which trivialize or implicitly endorse/encourage rape by blaming the victim, sympathizing with/rationalizing the criminal's actions, and so on; there is nothing about this that would require that these things be unique to rape in order for "rape culture" to exist- the question is whether these tendencies are real; if they are, rape culture exists, simple as that. Just thought I'd point out that rather glaring non-sequitur.

 

[freethinker44]

Our legal system reflects our culture.

like hell it does.

Exactly. If our legal system reflected our culture there would be no question that there is no rape culture. Rape is explicitly forbidden. Prisons even have a special place for sexual offenders because they are seen as the lowest bottom feeder criminals. Murderers, not so much. They actually tattoo how many people they've killed on their face.

 

[freethinker44]

I agree that aspects of our society very much overreact to any sex, but I can also assure you that plenty of people had problems with the violence in gta.

Oh I know. I've heard it all from relatives. But the fact is, the violence wasn't perceived as the worse part of the game. I remember hearing more about how awful it is to let gamers victimize prostitutes, but in reality that's something you do once or twice before the novelty wears off and you go back to killing cops.

 

[Curious George]

Exactly. If our legal system reflected our culture there would be no question that there is no rape culture. Rape is explicitly forbidden. Prisons even have a special place for sexual offenders because they are seen as the lowest bottom feeder criminals. Murderers, not so much. They actually tattoo how many people they've killed on their face.

Some "rape" is expressly forbidden as rape. but when our legal systems overlook or fail to prosecute some rapes that also reflects our society. How we treat rape victims also reflect our society, how sex is portrayed also reflects our society etc. etc.

 

[Curious George]

Oh I know. I've heard it all from relatives. But the fact is, the violence wasn't perceived as the worse part of the game. I remember hearing more about how awful it is to let gamers victimize prostitutes, but in reality that's something you do once or twice before the novelty wears off and you go back to killing cops.

Um, I think that the victimization involved sex and then murder to get your money back got people extra upset.

 

[freethinker44]

Some "rape" is expressly forbidden as rape. but when our legal systems overlook or fail to prosecute some rapes that also reflects our society. How we treat rape victims also reflect our society, how sex is portrayed also reflects our society etc. etc.

All of this can be said of any crime. How is rape special?

 

[freethinker44]

Um, I think that the victimization involved sex and then murder to get your money back got people extra upset.

Right, worse than killing an army of cops.

 

[Thana]

There are more victims after a murder than just the murdered person. The whole family has been victimized, and there is no prosecuted crime that isn't relived over and over with police, the attorneys, the court... why is rape special?

Why do you keep asking why rape is special?

Do you believe rape is equal to murder? Why?

 

[psychoslice]

I am a male and I was raped at an early age by two men, I was also nearly killed a couple of times, but now looking back I think I would prefer the rape over being killed, I have left the past behind and I am very happy where I am today.

 

[freethinker44]

Why do you keep asking why rape is special?

Do you believe rape is equal to murder? Why?

You know what rape culture is right?

 

[Curious George]

All of this can be said of any crime. How is rape special?

Rape culture avoids some rapes, or diminishes other rapes. 50 years ago, what psycho slice endured wouldn't have been considered rape. It would have been considered sodomy. The same crime a homosexual could have been prosecuted for.

A lot has changed. Now most places have sexual assault and sexual assault against a minor crimes. But the fact that some places still have separate penalties for rape vs. sexual assault and the only difference is whether the victim had a penis, or whether the perpetrators were male is a problem.
the fact that many people care little or nothing at all about victims of rape in prison is a problem. the prevalence of homophobia to the point of shaming male victims is a problem. The fact that victims were "asking for it" in any person's mind because of how they were dressed or where they were walking, or who they invited over etc is a problem. The fact that people avoid the topic of rape is a problem, the fact that victim advocacy is considered part of some radical feminist conspiracy is a problem. the fact that sex is portrayed largely as something a man does to a woman is a problem, the fact that women a sexuality is glossed over or hidden completely is a problem. So many facts lead to rape culture but if nothing else the sheer number of sexual assault and rapes definitely is a problem.

And, if you want to know the difference between rape and murder. The abundance of rape is certainly a good place to start.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

All of this can be said of any crime. How is rape special?

The existence of rape culture doesn't require that rape be special in this regard; all that it requires is that certain social/cultural attitudes or behavior tend to trivialize/encourage/facilitate rape- hell, we could have similar attitudes and behavior towards MANY, MANY other crimes or acts, and this wouldn't affect whether there is still a "rape culture". This is a pretty obvious non-sequitur, as I pointed out already.

 

[freethinker44]

Rape culture avoids some rapes, or diminishes other rapes. 50 years ago, what psycho slice endured wouldn't have been considered rape. It would have been considered sodomy. The same crime a homosexual could have been prosecuted for.

A lot has changed. Now most places have sexual assault and sexual assault against a minor crimes. But the fact that some places still have separate penalties for rape vs. sexual assault and the only difference is whether the victim had a penis, or whether the perpetrators were male is a problem.
the fact that many people care little or nothing at all about victims of rape in prison is a problem. the prevalence of homophobia to the point of shaming male victims is a problem. The fact that victims were "asking for it" in any person's mind because of how they were dressed or where they were walking, or who they invited over etc is a problem. The fact that people avoid the topic of rape is a problem, the fact that victim advocacy is considered part of some radical feminist conspiracy is a problem. the fact that sex is portrayed largely as something a man does to a woman is a problem, the fact that women a sexuality is glossed over or hidden completely is a problem. So many facts lead to rape culture but if nothing else the sheer number of sexual assault and rapes definitely is a problem.

And, if you want to know the difference between rape and murder. The abundance of rape is certainly a good place to start.

All crimes have problems rooted in society or culture. I could come up with a comparable list with murder or theft, but we don't say we live in a theft culture or murder culture, we say we live in a rape culture. No one starts an anti-theft movement because someone admired someones watch in an elevator, but someone hits on a girl in an elevator and offers her coffee and it's an international sexual harassment scandal.

Why does rape culture get special attention and not just considered a part of criminal culture as a whole? How is rape culture a bigger problem? Or maybe it's just me, I do frequent mostly liberal places. So maybe it's just a liberal thing, but just doing a quick Google search it's clear that more weight and importance is placed behind rape and rape culture than any other crime.

 

[freethinker44]

The existence of rape culture doesn't require that rape be special in this regard; all that it requires is that certain social/cultural attitudes or behavior tend to trivialize/encourage/facilitate rape- hell, we could have similar attitudes and behavior towards MANY, MANY other crimes or acts, and this wouldn't affect whether there is still a "rape culture". This is a pretty obvious non-sequitur, as I pointed out already.

True, but it's not like that. People have a very different attitude about rape and sex than they do about murder and violence. I hear what you're saying, but this is kind of like the porn debate where; when we say porn doesn't exploit women, we mean it doesn't exploit women any more than any other occupation exploits their workers. That's what I'm saying, we don't live in a rape culture, we live in a violence culture. Rape culture is just a subset of that, no more, no less. You're just arguing semantics.