Rape culture

[Me Myself]

However, There can usually be evidence (DNA etc)

But yeah, It can also be a case of he said, she said (Where without proof, The perp can sometimes get off)

DNA evidences sex not consent or lack of thereof.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

True, but it's not like that. People have a very different attitude about rape and sex than they do about murder and violence. I hear what you're saying, but this is kind of like the porn debate where; when we say porn doesn't exploit women, we mean it doesn't exploit women any more than any other occupation exploits their workers. That's what I'm saying, we don't live in a rape culture, we live in a violence culture. Rape culture is just a subset of that, no more, no less. You're just arguing semantics.

Not really; saying that rape culture does not exist, and saying that rape culture is merely a subset of a larger cultural attitude which trivializes or facilitates violence or crime generally are two completely different claims. One could grant the latter and, remaining consistent, deny the former.

 

[Me Myself]

And I would say that our society presents violence as a male trait.

This is talked about by those in gender studies and by feminists, and masculinists. Rape is glorified by portraying sex in general as positive and refrain from sex as negative. Moreover, many movies only have women as sexual objects. To deny a man sex in many movies is portrayed negatively. Combine this with a culture that encourages one to take what they want whether by intelligence or force and voila.

Portraying sex as positive and refraining from as negative is not the same as saying rape is okay o.o. By the slightest o.o

You seem to ignore his int though, there are Maaaaaaaaany movies were killing is glorified, bu you ll find none or almost none where rape is glorified . So if there is a "rape culture" then the murder culture is thousands times worst.

 

[Me Myself]

Okay, what?

What movies glorify rape?

Plenty of movies and series glorify murder, which movies glorify rape?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

This-

...So if there is a "rape culture" then the murder culture is thousands times worst.

Does not follow from this-

...there are Maaaaaaaaany movies were killing is glorified, bu you ll find none or almost none where rape is glorified .

Movies are hardly the only or even primary indicator of rape culture. And I think the claim is patently false anyways; the phenomena which rape culture purportedly consist in, such as blaming the victim and so on, appear to have no correlates in cases of murder. For instance, when was the last time you heard someone implying it was the victim's fault for getting murdered- that they were "asking for it"?

 

[freethinker44]

Not really; saying that rape culture does not exist, and saying that rape culture is merely a subset of a larger cultural attitude which trivializes or facilitates violence or crime generally are two completely different claims. One could grant the latter and, remaining consistent, deny the former.

Semantics

 

[Me Myself]

Not really; saying that rape culture does not exist, and saying that rape culture is merely a subset of a larger cultural attitude which trivializes or facilitates violence or crime generally are two completely different claims. One could grant the latter and, remaining consistent, deny the former.

I still would like to hear a list of movies were people are meant to smpathize with the rapist.

Cause we both know I can find a list of em where they are meant to anticipate and love the murders.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Semantics

You appear to be confused as to what "semantics" means.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I still would like to hear a list of movies were people are meant to smpathize with the rapist.

Why? Doesn't seem very relevant.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Not really; saying that rape culture does not exist, and saying that rape culture is merely a subset of a larger cultural attitude which trivializes or facilitates violence or crime generally are two completely different claims. One could grant the latter and, remaining consistent, deny the former.

Not only is it NOT a semantic difference; these claims are mutually exclusive- if rape culture does not exist, then it cannot be a subset of a larger cultural attitude trivializing/facilitating crime or violence, and if it is such a subset, then it cannot not exist. Oops!

 

[freethinker44]

For instance, when was the last time you heard someone implying it was the victim's fault for getting murdered- that they were "asking for it"?

Google Trayvon Martin's hoodie.

 

[Me Myself]

Why? Doesn't seem very relevant.

Because media doesnt happen in a vacum. Media is nurtured by e culture.

If there is a rape culture that is stronger than the murder culture then it surely should be reflected in media.

 

[freethinker44]

Not only is it NOT a semantic difference; these claims are mutually exclusive- if rape culture does not exist, then it cannot be a subset of a larger cultural attitude trivializing/facilitating crime or violence, and if it is such a subset, then it cannot not exist. Oops!

I'm not going to argue semantics with you.

 

[MoonWater]

Okay, what?

What movies glorify rape?

Plenty of movies and series glorify murder, which movies glorify rape?

Goldfinger

[youtube]1pUXH1Bye88[/youtube]
Goldfinger - James Bond & ***** Galore Barn Scene HD - YouTube

I've also seen talk that Skyfall, the latest bond movie has rape in it but I haven't seen it, so i wouldn't know and I'm not of the mindset to be watching it right now

 

[freethinker44]

You appear to be confused as to what "semantics" means.

se·man·tics

noun plural but singular or plural in construction \si-ˈman-tiks\ : the study of the meanings of words and phrases in language
: the meanings of words and phrases in a particular context

Yup, that's what I thought it meant. You are arguing semantics, focusing on the literal definition of words and not how they are being used. I'm not going to argue semantics with you.

Of course, there is the possibility that you genuinely don't understand what we are talking about and you are confused by the semantics. That isn't the case, is it?

 

[MoonWater]

oh, and Hollow man. That one had a female character existing for the sole purpose of getting raped and afterwards the guys joke about it.

and there are two star trek episodes.

Not to mention the idea of the woman "resisting at first but then giving in" is very prevalent throughout popular media which is born out of the idea that "she secretly wants it".

I think Meg from Hercules said it best when she said: "well you know how men are. they think no means yes and get lost means take me I'm yours"

Now of course this is not true of all or even most men but it still speaks to a concept that a lot of men believe.

And can anyone name another crime where "oh so and so wanted it, they were just playing hard to get." is considered a legitimate defense?

"Your honor, I'm not guilty of murder, that person secretly wanted to be killed"
"But they wanted me to break their door and take their TV"
"They wanted me to beat them up"

 

[Me Myself]

Goldfinger

[youtube]1pUXH1Bye88[/youtube]
Goldfinger - James Bond & ***** Galore Barn Scene HD - YouTube

I've also seen talk that Skyfall, the latest bond movie has rape in it but I haven't seen it, so i wouldn't know and I'm not of the mindset to be watching it right now

Thet were clearly flirting since long long time and when you got two people of their kind (I thinkk both are killers?) you shouldnt expect them to play PC.

Ar worst, the first kiss was rape and then on it was clearly consensual. At a more realistic approach though, she comes close after he tried to grab her and she had sent him to the floor. Why did she came close? Why did she come near his hand? Dont tell me it didnt occur to her he might try to keep the wresttle.

They are flirting, and if such a dubious example from such a long time ago where both are clearly physically capable and the only unwarranted sexual contact was a kiss is all you got... Well, I take you really dont want me to give you a list of movies were murder is glorified right?

Also a list of movies where rape is looked down upon should be pretty simple.

One old ond movie with one forced kiss. Really?

 

[freethinker44]

And can anyone name another crime where "oh so and so wanted it, they were just playing hard to get." is considered a legitimate defense?

"Your honor, I'm not guilty of murder, that person secretly wanted to be killed"
"But they wanted me to break their door and take their TV"
"They wanted me to beat them up"

This is kind of a straw man argument. Obviously no one is going to say those things about theft or murder, but you might hear something like "they should have known how dangerous that part of town is" or "if you don't want your things stolen you shouldn't leave your doors unlocked" or "he got shot because he had his hoodie pulled up over his head".

 

[Me Myself]

oh, and Hollow man. That one had a female character existing for the sole purpose of getting raped and afterwards the guys joke about it.

and there are two star trek episodes.

Not to mention the idea of the woman "resisting at first but then giving in" is very prevalent throughout popular media which is born out of the idea that "she secretly wants it".

I think Meg from Hercules said it best when she said: "well you know how men are. they think no means yes and get lost means take me I'm yours"

Now of course this is not true of all or even most men but it still speaks to a concept that a lot of men believe.

And can anyone name another crime where "oh so and so wanted it, they were just playing hard to get." is considered a legitimate defense?

"Your honor, I'm not guilty of murder, that person secretly wanted to be killed"
"But they wanted me to break their door and take their TV"
"They wanted me to beat them up"

The problem is that people consensually want to have sex all the time and flirting does tend to be messy. Joke abuse happens both ways were the man pretends being abused or the woman pretends being abused or someone pretends yo be all that, etc.

Flirting is way more gray.

And almost nowhere people ask before they kiss.

I tell you because ñi ve asked and and she has told me I ruined it for asking

Also, I know a lot of women who do play hard to get, and do so physically to and have told me they do that and have friends that do that.

The reason a jury may believe you "she was asking to be kissed " or "she wanted to have sex" is because this things do happen. As Thana said, women also may "change their mind" post consensus.

I understand there was some campaign in spain that was something along the lines of "changing your mind after sex doesnt equal rape" because of cases like this.

Surely rape happens, but intent and body language and tone is important.

Its not the same to say:

No
No :yes:
No :flirt
No :no:

Reallity of human flirting is, a no does means yes a lot of times.

This of course doesnt happen with murder.

 

[freethinker44]

oh, and Hollow man. That one had a female character existing for the sole purpose of getting raped and afterwards the guys joke about it.

and there are two star trek episodes.

Honestly, this doesn't really matter. For every movie or TV show you name that glorifies something that slightly borders on sexual assault, sexual harassment at the very least, I can list ten that glorify out-right murder. The point is that rape culture isn't as prevalent as violence or drug or even theft culture.