• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Rape?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I didn't feel like it was wrong or unjust, or that I had to do something to restore my dignity.

Yes, I had the same problem. I didn't feel wronged, just sad. Certainly I could accept it, but it still made me sad. Good thing Boss came around to find me.

Yes there are lots of good men around. But there is a jock hockey macho car-racing boozing still out there too. Violence is in the culture to stay for awhile, methinks. The irony is that trying to be something like that is often exactly what women don't want in a man, once they figure it out too. Teaching grade 8s and 9s was really weird some days. :)

Those guys just don't know what they're missing. Reminds me of the documentary of the fighting gorillas so busy fighting over dominance that some sneaky younger male goes behind a tree with a female.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Yes, I had the same problem. I didn't feel wronged, just sad. Certainly I could accept it, but it still made me sad. Good thing Boss came around to find me.

Yes there are lots of good men around. But there is a jock hockey macho car-racing boozing still out there too. Violence is in the culture to stay for awhile, methinks. The irony is that trying to be something like that is often exactly what women don't want in a man, once they figure it out too. Teaching grade 8s and 9s was really weird some days. :)

Those guys just don't know what they're missing. Reminds me of the documentary of the fighting gorillas so busy fighting over dominance that some sneaky younger male goes behind a tree with a female.

Lol, exactly. Somebody (Dustin, maybe?) posted a study on another thread that found guys who were carrying a guitar case got three times as many phone numbers from random women than guys with a gym bag. The gym bag guys got half as many as guys carrying nothing.

There's the mating opportunity consequence of being perceived as a tough guy, right there. :D
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Unfortunately there are 'players' carrying guitar cases. The guy in my home town (late 60s, early 70s) who sold the most drugs also had the shortest haircut and went to the police station to ask dumb traffic law questions and befriend. It worked.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
They are not acting randomly, right?
They raped for some reason, correct?



That's excellent. So, perhaps you can explain to me why a rapist rapes. Why rape specifically?



I don't disagree with this. Not all forms of rape could be considered sex.



Excuse me, but I don't feel like commenting on personal matters such as these on this kind of topic.




I am not him. And please do tell me what arguments i have ignored specifically.



It is not all about sex.
What the crowd is persisting on is: ''you can't say rape has nothing to do with sex ever''.

Yeah, you can say that. Based on psychological research, sociological research, statistics, maintaining a victim-oriented perspective, philosophical reasoning, ethical reasoning, an understanding of behaviors associated with aggression in general, etc. and I have based my position on all of these things, providing evidence to back up my position at every opportunity and reading twice as much as I post.

"Rape is about sex" is a rape myth. Those who have been defending this myth have offered nothing but an excerpt from the dictionary and a bit of speculation based entirely on their own mental picture of what it's like to actually rape somebody. That picture you're clinging to is fantasy rape. Not a rape fact.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Unfortunately there are 'players' carrying guitar cases. The guy in my home town (late 60s, early 70s) who sold the most drugs also had the shortest haircut and went to the police station to ask dumb traffic law questions and befriend. It worked.

Yeah, perception doesn't always match up with reality. But you do hear about more famous athletes being accused of sexual assault than famous musicians.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Yeah, you can say that. Based on psychological research, sociological research, statistics, maintaining a victim-oriented perspective, philosophical reasoning, ethical reasoning, an understanding of behaviors associated with aggression in general, etc. and I have based my position on all of these things, providing evidence to back up my position at every opportunity and reading twice as much as I post.

Would you mind posting the evidence you have that pertains to the subject of our conversation? OUR, not with other people, please.

I have been asking 'why rapists rape?'. And all i keep getting is these vague answers.

"Rape is about sex" is a rape myth. Those who have been defending this myth have offered nothing but an excerpt from the dictionary and a bit of speculation based entirely on their own mental picture of what it's like to actually rape somebody. That picture you're clinging to is fantasy rape. Not a rape fact.

I couldn't care less about ''Rape is about sex'' on this particular topic. My focus has been on compreending how some of you reached the conclusion that ''Rape is never about sex''.

Maybe if you post your arguments that lead you to this conclusion i just might agree with you. Because shoving your conclusions down my throat hasn't worked so far.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Would you mind posting the evidence you have that pertains to the subject of our conversation? OUR, not with other people, please.

I have been asking 'why rapists rape?'. And all i keep getting is these vague answers.



I couldn't care less about ''Rape is about sex'' on this particular topic. My focus has been on compreending how some of you reached the conclusion that ''Rape is never about sex''.

Maybe if you post your arguments that lead you to this conclusion i just might agree with you. Because shoving your conclusions down my throat hasn't worked so far.

Yes, I would mind. If you can't be bothered to read the thread to understand my position and look at the evidence supporting it before constructing your rebuttal, that's your problem. Not mine. You're not raising anything new that hasn't already been addressed at length. By this point, if you want to make a factual assertion, make it. Post your evidence. If you only want to attack my assertions and the evidence supporting them without reading them first, you lose.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Yes, I would mind. If you can't be bothered to read the thread to understand my position and look at the evidence supporting it before constructing your rebuttal, that's your problem. Not mine. You're not raising anything new that hasn't already been addressed at length. By this point, if you want to make a factual assertion, make it. Post your evidence. If you only want to attack my assertions and the evidence supporting them without reading them first, you lose.

Such a shame. You have been debating over many different points over this topic, and i haven't seen you posting anything relevant on regards to evidence to the subject we ( as in you and me ) are talking about, which is why i asked you to do that.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Such a shame. You have been debating over many different points over this topic, and i haven't seen you posting anything relevant on regards to evidence to the subject we ( as in you and me ) are talking about, which is why i asked you to do that.

If your question is "why choose rape", Legion posted research indicating a large majority of convicted sex offenders report that they wanted to live out a sexual fantasy. Poisonshady posted evidence that all rapists share a desire to dominate the victim and a sense of male entitlement, and that victim blaming attitudes are widespread among sex offenders. Others have posted evidence that those who commit sex offenses also exhibit aggressive and dominating behavior in many non-sexual ways. Virtually all sex offenders have the option of consensual sex open to them.

Another factor that correlates positively with rape proclivity is rape myth acceptance, for example believing that people often or sometimes rape other people because they're just really horny. In fact, rape never occurs without a conscious choice by the perpetrator to disregard the necessity of obtaining consent in order to engage in sexual contact. That specific decision is aggressive and violent. If the perpetrator didn't make that choice, it's just sex. If they do, it's not sex any more, it's aggression.

For my evidence, you're welcome to read the thread. That is your job, not mine.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
:clap

Very. VERY. Well. Said.

Thanks. I'm hoping someone will eventually contend or at least respond to my post a few pages ago where I ask if my definition of violence that seemed to include physical subjection of someone's will, IMO, and whether or not this is useful. I'm assuming Kilgore is busy, I was really hoping for a reply. :(
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Thanks. I'm hoping someone will eventually contend or at least respond to my post a few pages ago where I ask if my definition of violence that seemed to include physical subjection of someone's will, IMO, and whether or not this is useful. I'm assuming Kilgore is busy, I was really hoping for a reply. :(

Seems like a good definition to me, and it's how quite a lot of the evil in the world is carried out these days. The force feedings at Guantanamo are a really good example of dispassionate, casual violence in a clinical setting. The doctors don't beat you up. They just take no interest whatsoever in your volition, and if you struggle or resist they call the guards in to kick the tar out of you.
 
Last edited:

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Thanks. I'm hoping someone will eventually contend or at least respond to my post a few pages ago where I ask if my definition of violence that seemed to include physical subjection of someone's will, IMO, and whether or not this is useful. I'm assuming Kilgore is busy, I was really hoping for a reply. :(

Could be. Could also be this thread is beginning to die down a bit as many people have repeated the same thing for many pages. I like the perspective you've thrown in and how pertinent it is to the debate.

I have had theories of why when I've presented the "Rape = Violence; Rape =/= Sex" statement, that the argument against is still "Well, sure rape is violent, BUT...." When it comes to rape and sexual assault awareness, I'm continuing to investigate why the loophole continues to be thrown in and how to successfully reach the common ground where there is clarity.

The thing is, everybody would like to see rape decrease into a thing of the past. We don't as a culture argue over child brides, slavery, public executions, or the use of thumbscrews anymore. I would like to see the same thing happen with incidences of rape, and that if/when it does happen, there is no question how the society at whole responds, and that is with a resounding and universal HELL NO and NEVER AGAIN.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Seems like a good definition to me, and it's how quote a lot of the evil in the world is carried out these days. The force feedings at Guantanamo are a really good example of dispassionate, casual violence in a clinical setting. The doctors don't beat you up. They just take no interest whatsoever in your volition, and if you struggle or resist they call the guards in to kick the tar out of you.

That's how I see it. And from what I can determine the hold up here is whether all acts of rape are driven by violence. I've seemed to reach an agreement that all rape is always the lack on consent. And in terms of physically subjecting someone to one's will, by any means, and despite the outcome, I fail to see how any act of this nature doesn't fall under the definition of violence. Which if that be the case, then all rapists rape because of a motivation to disregard someone's consent and will with physical force, whether real or threatened, and this is innately violent by the definition I provided. If my definition is accepted, then there is no way to divorce "violence" as an motivation or drive or whatever in any instance or rape; even in the case where the frat boy who thinks he heard something but wasn't sure and continued anyways is choosing to ignore the consent of that person (instead just clarifying; a relatively easy thing to do until maybe completely black out drunk [which never excuses a crime]), which, again, is innately violence by my provided definition. I would even venture to say that this is the "primary" motivation, because it is the motivation most directly relevant to the crime itself, and is always present in all cases.

I'm sure people have all sorts of justifications and motives for raping people, some real and some completely false, but none of that means that the act isn't innately violent and that someone engaging in the act isn't intentionally engaging in an act of violence (and willing that to be so, seeing how they did it) or that any other possible motivation is central.

This all hinges on whatever or not the definition I provided for violence was more true and accurate than archaic uses of the term, and it's not my definition, it's one from the World Health Organization on a study about violence.

I do sympathize though with the lack of "male-becoming-rapist" prevention in society, and that ignoring what is internally happening in a male, and failing to identify the causes of rape with men, is only, at best, exacerbating the problem of rape. A lot of focus is placed on education for women, to avoid, deter, report, etc. rape (which is a great thing), but the male sex virtually gets no public education in any of this. And we sit and wonder why in 2013 we are even having to have this conversation at all still.

But that's my two cents. If no one really has an objection to my definition, I guess I'll leave it at that and move unto the next topic.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Could be. Could also be this thread is beginning to die down a bit as many people have repeated the same thing for many pages. I like the perspective you've thrown in and how pertinent it is to the debate.

Thanks! I think it is pertinent too, since it seems to be the crux of a fundamental disagree me. I would have responded sooner, had I been able to actually grasp the argument (after pages and all) and formulate my thoughts appropriately on it.

I have had theories of why when I've presented the "Rape = Violence; Rape =/= Sex" statement, that the argument against is still "Well, sure rape is violent, BUT...." When it comes to rape and sexual assault awareness, I'm continuing to investigate why the loophole continues to be thrown in and how to successfully reach the common ground where there is clarity.
That was my attempt, but if it is suddenly uncontested, I'm really not going to be that surprised.

The thing is, everybody would like to see rape decrease into a thing of the past. We don't as a culture argue over child brides, slavery, public executions, or the use of thumbscrews anymore. I would like to see the same thing happen with incidences of rape, and that if/when it does happen, there is no question how the society at whole responds, and that is with a resounding and universal HELL NO and NEVER AGAIN.
My too. Everyone agrees rape is bad and should be addressed. But, what I would like to see (much like you) is that sentiment implemented into actual action with observable results, so that I can feel a little bit better about issues being tackled instead of talked about and ultimately brushed aside.


I'm sure you would enjoy these, some stuff I happened upon in the course of my search for info: (There not entirely relevant the discussion we were having or anything, I just thought you might want them.)

ScienceDirect.com - Journal of Experimental Social Psychology - The unexpectedly positive consequences of confronting sexism

And a story in Forbes that talks about this study, as well as a couple other issues that even reinforcing the notion that people should be adamant on seeing change:

3 Reasons Why It Pays to Not Let Sexist Comments Slide - Forbes
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
But in both situations, the perpetrator IS showing a lack of empathy towards their partner. Even if you think you might have heard something different or only have 2 seconds to go until you finish, the moment that thought is made, a decision has to be made to either a.) ignore the consent of the other person or b.) respect the consent of the other person.

As soon as consent is disregarded, then a very fundamental difference has taken place. And since there is no real definition of "rape" or "sex," then, if anything, why shouldn't the line be drawn on the precedent of consent?

I can't imagine in one instance of "rape" in which consent has ever played a part, and if one has knowingly acted past consent, whether drunk in a dorm room or being nefarious preemptively from a van, the one "motivation" that is always present is to act upon a person regardless of their consent. It's an intention that must be present in order act upon the decision to rape someone.

I agree that purposefully making a physical advance that is considered sexual with knowledge of the renouence by the other party is sexual assault (or rape) .

But I think you are making an affirmation that is too open (do correct me wherever I failed to follow) are you saying that anything physival you do to a person without their consent equals rape? Is punching or fighting in general to be regarded as not less nor more grave than rape charges?

Should a slap in the face be regarded equally than a slap in the butt? Or a hit in the chest? (Of either male or female?)

In other words, you dont want there being any diferentiation like "sexual" assault or "rape" but just "assault" ?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I agree that purposefully making a physical advance that is considered sexual with knowledge of the renouence by the other party is sexual assault (or rape) .

But I think you are making an affirmation that is too open (do correct me wherever I failed to follow) are you saying that anything physival you do to a person without their consent equals rape? Is punching or fighting in general to be regarded as not less nor more grave than rape charges?

Should a slap in the face be regarded equally than a slap in the butt? Or a hit in the chest? (Of either male or female?)

In other words, you dont want there being any diferentiation like "sexual" assault or "rape" but just "assault" ?

Ideally, yes, but because of the social stigma and pressure surrounding sex and gender, sexual assault has a more difficult psychological aftermath than simple assault. This is because of persistent rape myth acceptance in society, where we continue to scrutinize the dress and behavior of the victim in order to try to explain the crime or excuse the perpetrator. That doesn't happen when someone is punching and kicking you. It only happens if they're assaulting you in some way that involves their genitals or yours.
 
Top