Rape?

[Kilgore Trout]

I disagree. The argument assumes that sexual urges carry with them a possible criminal intent.

It assumes no such thing. Any behavior, drive, or urge could cause a behavior that happened to be a crinimal act, but that doesn't mean the act was intended to be criminal.

Two people get horny. One cares about a potential partners boundaries and respects them. The other doesn't care and assaults the other person. Sexual urges were not the motivating factor. Sociopathic tendencies were.

A lack of empathy doesn't cause you to act. However, it can make it so that you do not think of others when pursuing your own needs or desires.

Also, is there a reason why males aged 15-25 or so are singled out in your response?

Indeed there is, as I spelled out in my response. The fact they are more likely to have out-of-control libidos, be less mature, and have a self-centered sense of entitlement.

Painting every teenage boy who date rapes someone as a sociopath who only performed the act to exert power over another person is not only overly simplistic, but ignores a whole range of other variables, causes, and scenarios.

 

[Me Myself]

A lack of empathy doesn't cause you to act. However, it can make it so that you do not think of others when pursuing your own needs or desires.

Exactly.

Empathy would act as a restraint to a desired goal, or if you wish, as a motivator to stop planning/executing the act.

Fear could also do that BTW. Both fear of legal punishment and the fear of direct punishment of one`s own undesired responses about the others response to your act (empathy) can make you not go through with your desire (to have sex with such person)

 

[Alceste]

No it doesnt.

Eating or hunger doesnt necessarily carries with it a criminal intent.

Stealing because you are hungry does. (unless you didnt know the food was of someone)

It's really odd that you keep equating rape with taking something from a woman. It isn't. It's a physical assault, like punching a dude in the face. Kicking a dog. Slapping a child. Etc. Sex isn't a thing that one person gives to another. It can't be taken, given or stolen.

 

[Me Myself]

It's really odd that you keep equating rape with taking something from a woman. It isn't. It's a physical assault, like punching a dude in the face. Kicking a dog. Slapping a child. Etc. Sex isn't a thing that one person gives to another. It can't be taken, given or stolen.

Its really odd that you cant understand how analogies work.

If the case was exactly the same, it wouldnt be an analogy. The fact that they can have equivalences in one area does not mean they do on all areas. rape is not the same as stealing, but it has similarities (as well as differences, if it didnt have differences, it would be the same, and it wouldnt be an analogy)

The thing is that the urge or the desire doesnt need to have the criminal intent in it. I am giving another example of an urge without criminal intent that can be resolved without it.

For example, if the person has the urge, tries to resolve it by courtship and the other person is seduced, both may have sex, there would be no crime there.

If the same person tries courtship and fails and then rapes the other person, the desire may have been the same, just that we now know this person is an immoral *******, given the lack of restraint to try immoral methods after the moral ones failed.

 

[Alceste]

I would suspect that most date rape perpetrated by high-school and college aged males probably has much less to do with the psychological expression of power, and more to do with out-of-control libidos, lack of maturity, and a self-centered sense of entitlement. Exercising power certainly may be a component, but, from my understanding and experience, it would be a gross oversimplification to attribute these acts solely to that, and not to recognize the role of sexual urges, as well as other factors. Besides, if it were solely about power, there are plenty of non-sexual ways to enact this behavior.

I don't doubt that teenage rapists attempt to exert power over others in many ways other than rape.

Of course things like alcohol, lack of comprehensive sex education dealing with the subject of consent, entitlement, huge misconceptions about female sexuality due to church, porn, films, video games, etc. all contribute to date rape, but horniness alone just causes wanking, not raping.

 

[Alceste]

"I really need something to do with my hands - I think I'll go punch somebody in the face!"

 

[Me Myself]

I don't doubt that teenage rapists attempt to exert power over others in many ways other than rape.

Of course things like alcohol, lack of comprehensive sex education dealing with the subject of consent, entitlement, huge misconceptions about female sexuality due to church, porn, films, video games, etc. all contribute to date rape, but horniness alone just causes wanking, not raping.

Oh of course!

No if you have phrased it like that "horniness alone cant cause rape", sure! I agree!

You also need another person, and the muscle/brain/social power needed to pull it of (notice that while exercising power to accomplish the goal is needed, it does not necessarily mean that showing off such power must always be anything other than a means to an end)

So for rape you need:

A motivation (any motivation works! )

A means of doing it

A lack of internal restraint, or a motivation big enough to defeat internal constraints.

A lack of fear for outside repercussions, such as legal repercussions.

 

[Me Myself]

"I really need something to do with my hands - I think I'll go punch somebody in the face!"

We have natural internal urges to do "something" with our hands? o.o

I mean, sure, if you are mad, blood rushes to your hands and depending on several internal factors you may want to punch your problems away, whether in faces or punching bags.

Are you refering to that?

 

[Me Myself]

scapolamine rape is unlikely to have anything to do with anger if the person wasnt doing it rough.

Sure, there is the mentaliy of "I can take and do whatever I want as long as I can do it", which in itself is the root of a lot of problems, but without sexual urge, such person wouldnt care to use scapolamine to have sex with another assumed to be unwilling if not under the effects.

 

[Alceste]

We have natural internal urges to do "something" with our hands? o.o

I mean, sure, if you are mad, blood rushes to your hands and depending on several internal factors you may want to punch your problems away, whether in faces or punching bags.

Are you refering to that?

Seriously, if I'm not doing something with my hands I get agitated, bored and frustrated.

I think I'll go slap an old man around...

 

[Me Myself]

Seriously, if I'm not doing something with my hands I get agitated, bored and frustrated.

I think I'll go slap an old man around...

Why would you choose to hurt to punch or slap when there are so many different things you can occupy your hands with?

I dont know the origin of your particular compulsion or its nature, so I just cant comment much on it.

In any case, sure if you could do nothing with your hands but slap people near you and you had no moral restraint for doing so nor fear of retribution of legal or physical nature, and didnt have the basic empathy of not doing it because you know they wont like it or reacting to their displeasure after you do that so that you stop, it would be likely you would just do it and keep at it.

I dont know you, but I assume you do have moral codes, basic empathy, etc.



The pen falls because of gravity, but also because someone dropped it. the same event has mutiple causes, which may very well be dependant upon each other.

In the case of your compulsion, if you had no moral constraint to slap people, no fear of retribution but no motivation (say, your compulsion is no more, or there are other things to do with yuor hands than to slap), it is likely you wouldnt do it anyways.

 

[Alceste]

Why would you choose to hurt to punch or slap when there are so many different things you can occupy your hands with?

I dont know the origin of your particular compulsion or its nature, so I just cant comment much on it.

In any case, sure if you could do nothing with your hands but slap people near you and you had no moral restraint for doing so nor fear of retribution of legal or physical nature, and didnt have the basic empathy of not doing it because you know they wont like it or reacting to their displeasure after you do that so that you stop, it would be likely you would just do it and keep at it.

I dont know you, but I assume you do have moral codes, basic empathy, etc.



The pen falls because of gravity, but also because someone dropped it. the same event has mutiple causes, which may very well be dependant upon each other.

In the case of your compulsion, if you had no moral constraint to slap people, no fear of retribution but no motivation (say, your compulsion is no more, or there are other things to do with yuor hands than to slap), it is likely you wouldnt do it anyways.

Gosh, I'm hungry. I think I'll cook and eat a human being. "It was the hunger, officer - uncontrollable hunger!" "Why didn't you just go to the fridge and grab a sandwich?" "HUNGER! You don't understand!"

 

[Me Myself]

"It was the hunger, officer - uncontrollable hunger!"

I assume you liked the flavour of human flesh more? that or you enjoy the hunt or it being "wrong".

 

[Me Myself]

"Why didn't you just go to the fridge and grab a sandwich?"

I assume you liked the flavour of human flesh more? that or you enjoy the hunt or it being "wrong".

 

[Alceste]

I assume you liked the flavour of human flesh more? that or you enjoy the hunt or it being "wrong".

So what you're saying is that it probably wasn't hunger that caused Jeffrey Dalmer to murder and eat men?

 

[Debater Slayer]

It seems to me that arguing that sexual desire could lead to rape entirely misses the fact that people don't normally desire forced penetration or actively pursue it. There's a difference between having the desire to have consensual sex and seeking to physically assault someone, which I don't think is because of libido. The former doesn't entail the latter, or at least it doesn't seem to be that way for the vast majority of people.

 

[Me Myself]

Now if you had human flesh already cooked in front of you and you were hungry with no immidiate access to any other kind of food I would understand the argument.

Or if you had like, lion`s teeth, and loved raw human flesh so much and have been again somehow without posibility of acces to food and thenthe sight and smell of a tasty human makes you hunger for it, then sure, I can understand how hunger could make you jump to another human being and ripp flesh out of her/him.

Now with such an easy access to a fridge and a sandwich, I am not sure I follow the argument.

Of course, all of this still need a lack of personal moral constraint. Or at least hunger huge enough. Then again I doubt sexual urge could be as high to overule a reasonable enough moral constraint given possibility of masturbation. But a preference for a specific female and a lack of morals? sure, there it could happen.

 

[Me Myself]

So what you're saying is that it probably wasn't hunger that caused Jeffrey Dalmer to murder and eat men?

I dont know Jeffrey`s case.

What I am saying is that while depending on specific circumsances, hunger can definetely lead to canibalism, it is unlikely to do so if you are next to a sandwich or another way easier to access source of food.

 

[Alceste]

I dont know Jeffrey`s case.

What I am saying is that while depending on specific circumsances, hunger can definetely lead to canibalism, it is unlikely to do so if you are next to a sandwich or another way easier to access source of food.

Look, what you're claiming is that a strong urge, like hunger, can cause a human being to go out of their way to physically assault another human being to satisfy the urge instead of just grabbing something out of the fridge. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

The only way it makes sense is if a physical assault on another human being IS the urge that the person wants to satisfy.

 

[Alceste]

It seems to me that arguing that sexual desire could lead to rape entirely misses the fact that people don't normally desire forced penetration or actively pursue it. There's a difference between having the desire to have consensual sex and seeking to physically assault someone, which I don't think is because of libido. The former doesn't entail the latter, or at least it doesn't seem to be that way for the vast majority of people.

I think it's easy for people to get their personal sexual fantasies confused with the reality of rape. Both men and women fantasize about power play and rape, but the reality of forcing yourself on another human being is nothing at all like fantasy. It's not the sort of thing that turns most people on at all. In the average rape fantasy, the rapee (male or female) is actually having an awesome time and there are no regrets or bad feelings. In a genuine rape, the victim is pretty obviously not into it.